So wait, slower rate of fire, but more powerful shots, with harder to get ammunition is unbalanced?

Seriously? Might as well complain that the bow with the biggest potential damage imput is the hunting bow, one of the first bows you can find in the game, because you can just machinegun-fire those arrows into people, instead of sniping it.


Oh and if we bring up New Vegas, then Sniper rifles are overpowered, they all have a much bigger damage than pistols and they use the same skill, you can also get them very early as well...

There can be balance and realism. Crossbows(of the medieval period) take longer to load than drawing even very powerful large bows. A bow would fire many more arrows per minute than a crossbow could fire bolts. The physics of crossbows firing mechanism also made it less effective as a long range weapon. Modern crossbows are of course much better than medieval ones, but they could've made the crossbow a unique style of weapon by implementing its strengths and weaknesses better instead of just making it bow+. Crossbows can have a bolt readied, so they're ideal if surprised. They pierced heavy armor better than most bows. However, it'd be unrealistic to actually try to load and fire a second bolt while in combat - while with bows, at least the smaller types, this is feasible. Basically crossbow = simple to use one shot wonder, bow = harder to use but faster to ready and with much better ROF.

Balance is definitely > realism though, and they can capture the "spirit" of a weapon without making it completely realistic. Apparently we're not supposed to expect balance in single player games though, I don't know when that attitude emerged but I can only hope it doesn't last long.

A crossbow isn't a bow... "overpowered" "underpowered" it's a single player game... who cares!

Great.

Now go try and fight a Tunneler, Nightstalker or Cazador swarm with a sniper rifle.
That's the difference. Snipers are allowed to hit high in single shots because they're crap when dealing with swarms of enemies or even fighting up close. Likewise, a good pistol will work wonders on Cazadors or Tunnelers, but you'd never EVER consider using it against a Deathclaw or BoS Paladin.

People are simply asking for balance. They're asking for a reason to use one over the other in certain scenarios, but from the sounds of it, crossbows are strong enough to make bows obsolete. I wouldn't know if they do or not, I haven't played and it looks as though there's fair reason to believe either side: that they're balanced or unbalanced. I'm just debunking your anology real quick.


Apparently OP does, and I must say I personally believe balance adds to replay value, so I wouldn't mind it either, though I have no idea if crossbows are truly as OP as OP claims (woah confusing, OP meaning original poster and overpowered...) as I've also heard claims that crossbows fail pretty hard at long-range and are best used solely for close to mid range.



Actually, not quite. I've been following this topic quietly for some time. I actually remembered the project director of New Vegas is a history major and had mentioned the crossbow vs. bow issue in the past. I asked him again which was superior "in history's opinion" (what happens when two opposing armies used them against each other) and this is what he had to say:

"The crossbow was the ranged weapon of choice in the middle ages until the Hundred Years War. At the battles of Crécy, Poitiers, and Agincourt, English and Welsh archers using Welsh longbows consistently defeated French armies bolstered by foreign mercenary crossbow troops. Crossbows could have a higher draw weight and required less training, but that was ultimately irrelevant due to the extreme speed with which longbows could be fired and the extensive national training of troops in England and Wales."

As others have said, it seems the crossbow was the weapon-of-choice solely because it was easier to train people to use it, not because it was actually that awesome.

There are only 4 (incl. enchanted) in the game... see them as unique weapons


This.

Eh i agree that there is no real reason to use bow when you have crossbow but crossbow are only for dawnguard members. so if your not planning to do the questline your not gonna get it.

Depends on the situation really, I use my bow for long range snipping shots and I use the cross bow for up close and personal encounters. Like I said...... The cross bow can be compared to a modern close quarters combat shotgun, and a bow ( of any make ) can be compared to a modern sniper rifle. Each have situations that they excel at so there's really no logical argument as to which is better, just like the sniper rifle and the shotgun.


And if I'm not mistaken it was that battle that saved the " life " of the long bow.
The bow requires years of training and preparation, the cross bow can be picked up and fired * somewhat * right at the start. People are like water, they always take the easier root. My meaning behind that is...... If it wasn't for that historical battle between the English and the French, the ranged weapon of choice would have turned to the cross bow just because it's dumb proof, the average joe could pick it up and it would still be lethal.
IMO the cross bow in game is fine ( not OP ) because it's represented pretty good in game ( power, range, reload time ) and to say it's OP just because you can get it at low levels is silly ( sorry orig. poster ), just because I don't have the knowledge to properly fire a gun or maintain it does not mean that I cannot get one.

Bows were invented for the purpose of hunting, to provide food. Crossbows were invented for the purpose of killing people. The fact that a steel crossbow is equivlent to a daedric bow is correct.

The idea is based about Pro's and Con's of a crossbow.. He is saying there are more Pro's than con's.. Take a game like Dark Souls... The combat is fairly equal most of the time.. Even if you do use lightning weapons in that game.. Magic would still do around the same around the same as lightning.. Bows could be done well too.. The flaw of skyrim comes with equality.. Games should never have a weapon which makes you "One True master of Death" - Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows.. They should be balanced.. So there is no - Best Weapon... Comprende Vu?

Also you can look at a game like Team Fortess 2.. They do it pretty well.. Sometimes a weapon will be overpowered... But usually nerfed soon after..

If you can, can you link that topic?

Right, because things designed for killing animals clearly svck for killing people which are definitely not made of the same pathetic flesh and blood . . . :/
Bows have been used in war almost as long as they've existed, and many types were designed specifically for killing people more effectively. I've also gone over the pros and cons of crossbows and bows, but from the sound of it the pros of crossbows are heavily outweighing the cons and in an unrealistic manner. And even if crossbows were 100% superior, balance trumps realism in a game like Skyrim anyway, which doesn't exactly aim for realism in most of its combat anyway(and unfortunately there's little balance either, but the game would be improved if there were).

You wanna know how "OP" crossbows where in real life? The [censored] church banned them from being used because how powerful they where!!!

Bows were originally made for hunting until someone took an arrow in their knee.. Then they begin to make bows to use against other people, however.. They learned that pathetic arrows don't pierce a knight's armor easily so they decided to make crossbows which are strong enough to make a hole in steel plate armor, like said before in this thread.

Come one, your really going to push that ? Of course crossbows are OP compared to bows, but like I said 2-3 times now it's like comparing a shotgun to a sniper rifle / service rifle. Both are good for the situations they where made for, neither one is better then the other, crossbows=close combat, inflicting maximum damage but is slow to reload...bows= fine control, long range, faster rate of fire at cost of "punching power ". OP is arguing that it's imbalanced because you can achieve the crossbow at lower levels, giving you an OP weapon. But I argue that just because your not an "expert " or have basic knowledge of the weapon in question does not mean that you couldn't get one and it's still a devastating in inexperienced hands. Is there imbalance in the game ? Yes but the crossbow being a powerful weapon and accessible is not even at lower levels.

Well, when I downloaded DG, I started a new character. Seems like to me the xbow kept my ass being handed to me on a regular basis. More of a equalizer.

Never thought of it like that, that thing basically does what a Daedric crossbow should.

Oh crap, this is the gauss rifle complaint all over again...

If you want to really talk realism > balance, medieval age crossbows took a very long time to reload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs

And that's an english longbow, a large, powerful and slower type of bow, against a fast weaker type of crossbow.

Self control, exactly! Top end gear...although fun to get/forge just makes you a killing machine. Hence why Deadly Dragons mod was created in the first place. I also crank the difficulty up once I am at a higher level as well as play with lower level gear. Playing vampire lord early on is pretty damn powerful as well. I go back and forth between my 2h warhammer and Edward Cullen mode.

Ok.. Some people are complaining that its realistic that it is overpowered.. Equality always comes before Realism in a game.. All weapons shouyld be some what balanced.. Now for some enlightenment.. In Fallout.. It would be realistic if you died from 1 bullet and stimpacks didn't exsist.. and bats made you unconcious.. Do you really want that.? Realism is a thing that can't be done in non-hardcoe RPG..

Im sorry, but i don't believe this. I was out-firing a bow. Given there is no "draw" time to fire a bolt, you can fire immediately, often times staggering the enemy who was starting to draw, forcing them to draw again, and by that time, you are ready to fire again. And thats with a marksman level under 50.


And don't confuse this as a complaint. I am perfectly fin with how crossbows are.

Its not about the shot.. Its about the reload.. I haven't played it yet but have a load of observations.. And Todd Howard said its slower to reload so im going on that

If you want realism, a single arrow to the body or of course head of an unarmored or lightly armored character would pretty much put them down. Most strikes of a melee weapon too. You'd rarely stand a chance against multiple enemies. I'm actually all for that though - I think Skyrim's typical RPG style combat doesn't do the game world justice at all. But they haven't given the PCs the necessary avoidance tools to make damage that high - we'd need parrying and dodging as well as probably making shields block offensive magic and armor reduce its damage normally instead of needing to stack resist enchants. However, this will "ruin" the "playstyle" of running in and hacking and slashing everything with comically oversized weapons making the game less accessible to some. I don't see them going that route yet, unfortunately for players who want a more serious combat system.

You can cancel the knocking of an arrow on a bow, but with a crossbow you will reload after a shot no matter what. You move at a snail's pace while reloading too, so if you were about to be hit before you shot and then you missed, now you will be hit. I've been killed multiple times while reloading my crossbow. Reloading is the biggest handicap for crossbows, and is what balances it out at lower levels when you can often be one-shot killed, since your ability to avoid those heavy hits is diminished.

I've also been able to outshoot enemy bows with no perks and a low archery skill too though. I think it's because of the amount of time NPC's take lining up a shot and not based on reload speed, but I've never tested it so I wouldn't bet on it.

I have been getting ready for Dawnguard... I have been leveling up my Archery.. I play on Master mode.. So I went into Bleak Falls barrow.. And the spider proved to be harder than i expected.. I almost died but had 1 small health potion