Crossbow Imbalance... : V

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:35 am

Spoiler

And I don't mean a drunken vampire hunter, as funny as that would be. But on a serious note, if you haven't played the Dawnguard side of the story or you haven't done any sidequests for them, you might want to avert your eyes.

What I'm referring to is the balance issue created in archery after starting to use Dawnguard. If I were to compare Crossbows and bows side by side based on their base stats, it would be rather unnerving.

The basic Crossbow comes in at 19 damage, 39 if you're using one of the exploding bolts. A daedric bow also comes in at 19, but jumps ahead to 43 when you add a daedric arrow. A mere four base damage away from using a daedric Bow&Arrow by running to Fort Dawnguard immediatly and doing nothing else because you're handed a free crossbow, granted it takes a few quests to get the exploding bolts.

Now, let me up the values a bit here. The Dwarven Crossbow comes in at 22 damage, with an additional 29 damage from an exploding dwarven bolt bringing it up to a whopping 51 damage, and it only requires 30 smithing along with 2 or 3 "main" quests and a few simple radiant quests to kill a couple of vampires and bandits. On the other hand a Dragonbone bow, which requires 100 smithing and the death of at least one dragon or two if you're unlucky with loot, has a base damage of 20 that goes to 45 with the use of a dragonbone arrow, which takes more dragon kills.

By running directly to the Dawnguard at level one, I could have a crossbow that beats the best quality bow in the game by 6 base damage (which sounds small, but the differences get more noticeable at higher archery levels) at about level 8 or 10, maybe even sooner. Not to mention the enhanced version of the crossbow with 50% armor piercing that doesn't require much more work to acquire and buy/craft. I should also note that it is possible to have a crossbow do three kinds of elemental damage through the perk that allows double enchanting and an exploding bolt.

So, if I want to do an archery character of any kind it will always be in the back of my head that 20-40 minutes of questing could defeat the purpose of working towards the daedric or dragon bow&arrow, and it doesn't feel good. The problem is, my only thought on how to balance this would be to add more materials that the crossbows could be made of, but that seems silly since Dwarven should probably be the best crossbow. Then again, if Bethesda just decreased the power of the crossbows, it would be kind of dumb to try and use them once you can have access to the higher tier bows. So while I'm dissapointed at this imbalance, I personally don't see any easy way around it. But maybe somebody does?

I think it's kind of funny that you guys continued this for two pages after I stopped even checking for this thread. xD

But since you insist, it seems some of you missed the point. I'm not saying Crossbows shouldn't pack a pucnh, that's how it is in TES. I'm saying I shouldn't be able to get the Enhanced Dwarven Crossbow at level 8. I'm not some crazed crossbow junky looking for an intervention because I can't stop getting it, I just noticed this is a bit odd.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:27 am

But cross bows are supposed to pack a harder punch then bows, yes it's a little silly that you can get a cross bow early in the game but it boils down to self control . If you don't want a devastating weapon while in the lower Lv's then don't get the cross bow or store it until you fell your at the " right " Lv to use a cross bow. It's really not imbalanced, the time at which you can get a cross bow seems to be a little off ( you should have to be Lv.15-20 if you ask me ) but to say it's imbalanced compared to bows is silly IMO all because cross bows are supposed to be stronger then bows.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:59 am

But cross bows are supposed to pack a harder punch then bows, yes it's a little silly that you can get a cross bow early in the game but it boils down to self control . If you don't want a devastating weapon while in the lower Lv's then don't get the cross bow or store it until you fell your at the " right " Lv to use a cross bow. It's really not imbalanced, the time at which you can get a cross bow seems to be a little off ( you should have to be Lv.15-20 if you ask me ) but to say it's imbalanced compared to bows is silly IMO all because cross bows are supposed to be stronger then bows.

Of course, if I really want to not be overpowered I do just avoid Dawnguard. But the sad fact is that even though crossbows are supposed to pack a heavier punch than bows, why does a Dwarven-quality crossbow beat a dragonbone bow? Imagine that the dragonborn was smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and made a dragonbone crossbow, it would probably one hit kill everything.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:15 pm

To be fair, the full measure of a weapon isn't determined exclusively by the damage number. Bows are silent, crossbows are not. Bows fire faster. The crossbow is meant to be a high damage, slow firing variation for archery. If you only measure of value of a weapon is the base damage, then yeah, crossbows are best. But if you value the speed and silence of a bow, then crossbows aren't going to be a good fit. The value of the weapon is determined by your playstyle.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:18 pm

To be fair, the full measure of a weapon isn't determined exclusively by the damage number. Bows are silent, crossbows are not. Bows fire faster. The crossbow is meant to be a high damage, slow firing variation for archery. If you only measure of value of a weapon is the base damage, then yeah, crossbows are best. But if you value the speed and silence of a bow, then crossbows aren't going to be a good fit. The value of the weapon is determined by your playstyle.

Wait, the thunk of the crossbow actually affects sneaking? Honestly, I didn't notice getting caught any more often than I do with a regular bow. And I wasn't using some high level sneak character. As far as the speed goes, it was a slight disadvantage but I found that the reload is better than drawing a bow as I don't have to focus on my target while I wait for the next shot to be ready. Maybe the speed is just more of a "my taste" kind of thing, but I really didn't notice the sound making any difference in stealth.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:11 pm

it is a fact the crossbow is more powerful than the bow.

crossbows also have a longer range than the bow as well.

crossbows are also very easy to aim and shoot

the only reson people still used the bow after the crossbow was invented is a matter of cost and speed.

bows are cheeper and shoot faster.

crossbows are expensive and shoot slower.

Bethesda got there weapon history right on this one.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:18 am

To be fair, the full measure of a weapon isn't determined exclusively by the damage number. Bows are silent, crossbows are not. Bows fire faster. The crossbow is meant to be a high damage, slow firing variation for archery. If you only measure of value of a weapon is the base damage, then yeah, crossbows are best. But if you value the speed and silence of a bow, then crossbows aren't going to be a good fit. The value of the weapon is determined by your playstyle.

Which is why I keep both a bow and a cross bow on my person. I can sneak in silently with my bow and kill everything from the shadows, or I can walk into an enclosed area with my cross bow and clear it fairly fast. Prey and spray is more effective with the cross bow as well, but my favorite will always be the bow :biggrin:

Arial's bow complimented with an enhanced dwarven cross bow is a very deadly combination, mostly I open with the bow and use the cross bow for close quarters. There's never a time now that I have to unsheathed my sword, unless I fell like some sword and board action :bunny:

But I haven't noticed the *clunk* sound the cross bow makes while reloading effecting my sneak status, they notice me just as often with my cross bow as my bow :blink:

I assumed that seeing how you move more silently with a bow the same applied to cross bows, I could be wrong though. :shrug:

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:34 pm

If you feel it breaks immersion, don't use it. If you do really want to use it, you can, say, use the basic crossbow, with the steel bolts. I prefer a crossbow on a warrior character, yet almost never use one on an archer-assassin. It's up to you how you play the game, if the better crossbow is too powerful, don't upgrade it loads. It's the same with crafting. People feel crafting is way OP in Skyrim, and it is. But these people choose not to use it.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:03 am

Dont forget that Auriels bow has the fastest draw speed of all the "heavy" bows in the game (as fast as than long bows and hunting bows which are considered "light", youtube it an you'll see what I mean in terms of draw speed). So its much smoother to run than crossbows and with the quick-draw perk you can blast shots with the bow at almost triple the rate as you'd pull of crossbow shots so the slightly lower damage of it being a modified elven bow is compensated in a way.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:54 am

Jesus christ, this again?! Look, the GD have the crossbow, the vampires have the RIDICULOUSLY powerful VL form, just DEAL WITH IT and stop WHINING! PLease?!

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:34 pm

Jesus christ, this again?! Look, the GD have the crossbow, the vampires have the RIDICULOUSLY powerful VL form, just DEAL WITH IT and stop WHINING! PLease?!

Assuming that I'm a vampire player complaining that the Dawnguard have better equipment?
Calm your pantaloons there, I'm just bothered that a crossbow I can get at level 10 or so beats the dragonbone bow that takes 100 smithing or a good deal of luck at a considerably higher level.

And just so you know, the shift key doesn't disappear if you ignore it for five seconds.

Dont forget that Auriels bow has the fastest draw speed of all the "heavy" bows in the game (as fast as than long bows and hunting bows which are considered "light", youtube it an you'll see what I mean in terms of draw speed). So its much smoother to run than crossbows and with the quick-draw perk you can blast shots with the bow at almost triple the rate as you'd pull of crossbow shots so the slightly lower damage of it being a modified elven bow is compensated in a way.

Really? I mostly used it for the special attacks with sunhollowed and bloodcursed arrows. Although that is an Aedric artifact so I'm a bit torn about whether to call that overpowered.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:05 pm

Assuming that I'm a campire player complaining that the Dawnguard have better equipment?
Calm your pantaloons there, I'm just bothered that a crossbow I cna get at level 10 or so beats the dragonbone bow that takes 100 smithing or a good deal of luck at a considerably higher level.

And just so you know, the shift key doesn't disappear if you ignore it for five seconds.

Really? I mostly used it for the special attacks with sunhollowed and bloodcursed arrows. Although that is an Aedric artifact so I'm a bit torn about whether to call that overpowered.

Well I super smithed it so it was a God's bow :biggrin:

But it is very effective for a "use every day bow", that light explosion is freaking hilarious when you fire into a group of NPC's, they all scatter while they burn :evil:

The Sunhallow arrows are Skyrims version of an incendiary round :gun:

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:13 am

As you are about find out, every thread about balance around here will only get you a series of "don't like it, don't use it" responses. You want something done about it, you need the PC version :shrug:

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:54 am

without the perks does it really make that much of a difference? Also the weapons are designed with high end characters in mind, it would be really lame if a fully fledged dragonborn was given the equivalent of a long bow with longer load times when you installed dawngaurd at level 50. And you even have to do a few quests for the dawn guard to get the bolts.

And are you really worried about balance if you rush to get the crossbow at level 1?

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:25 pm

Bethesda doesn't know how 2 balance.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:09 am

Wait, I thought TES: Skyrim was an RPG? :unsure2:

I get where you're coming from. But Crossbows are stronger than Bows. And what would be the point of adding a new weak crossbow? Then why use it if it's no good?

I honestly kill more enemies with much more ease with un-smithed bows than I do my upgraded crossbow. That was until I got my Dwarven bow with the upgrade to it, and smithed to Legendary status. It is still not much better than my bows, but fun to use.

Any weapon in the game can be made to be overpowered. But one thing I do agree with is the dragonbone bow is a tad too weak.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:08 am

It all really comes down to personal preference. I do think however that they should have made crossbows for all the heavy armor classes. it would follow suit with what they started. bows being light armor and crossbows being heavy. Then to balance them better make the bows knock arrows much faster and crossbows slow like they are. that way, when you get all they way up to dragonbone you would have the option for a dragonbone crossbow and dragonbone bow. No they might have just left this out for the next DLC like they did with the dragonbone weapons this time. I mean why would there only be steel and dwarven crossbows?

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:27 pm

It all really comes down to personal preference. I do think however that they should have made crossbows for all the heavy armor classes. it would follow suit with what they started. bows being light armor and crossbows being heavy. Then to balance them better make the bows knock arrows much faster and crossbows slow like they are. that way, when you get all they way up to dragonbone you would have the option for a dragonbone crossbow and dragonbone bow. No they might have just left this out for the next DLC like they did with the dragonbone weapons this time. I mean why would there only be steel and dwarven crossbows?

The crossbow is a dwemer weapon so technically a dwemer crossbow is the best since they perfected it.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:52 am

Actually thats another lore mess up by bethesda I think. they've been in past games and the dwemer didnt make them

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:46 am

they could probably balance it by slowing down the reload rate of the cross bow and maybe make it less accurate over longer distances.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:36 pm

they could probably balance it by slowing down the reload rate of the cross bow and maybe make it less accurate over longer distances.

This
Im fine with the crossbows doing a lot a damage but the reload is to fast and should be slowed down. My current builduses two handed weapons ,but even though the warhammers do the most damage I dont use them much because there to slow for my taste. Now if the warhammer was as fast as the battleaxe then obviously I would use the warhammers exclusively.This is the problem with the crossbow yes its a bit slower to reload but the difference is so small that it doesnt really make any difference at all. The result is that when you get the crossbow all other bows with the exception of one become redundant. If it was up to me I would increase the damage that crossbows do but make the reload significantly slower than for bows.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:46 pm

It all really comes down to personal preference. I do think however that they should have made crossbows for all the heavy armor classes. it would follow suit with what they started. bows being light armor and crossbows being heavy. Then to balance them better make the bows knock arrows much faster and crossbows slow like they are. that way, when you get all they way up to dragonbone you would have the option for a dragonbone crossbow and dragonbone bow. No they might have just left this out for the next DLC like they did with the dragonbone weapons this time. I mean why would there only be steel and dwarven crossbows?

Yep, there's a whole part of the issue. The super-strong crossbow isn't just easy to get. It's easy to improve with smithing, being only dwarven. Besides, I think an orcish crossbow would look awesome.

Actually thats another lore mess up by bethesda I think. they've been in past games and the dwemer didnt make them

they could probably balance it by slowing down the reload rate of the cross bow and maybe make it less accurate over longer distances.

This
Im fine with the crossbows doing a lot a damage but the reload is to fast and should be slowed down. My current builduses two handed weapons ,but even though the warhammers do the most damage I dont use them much because there to slow for my taste. Now if the warhammer was as fast as the battleaxe then obviously I would use the warhammers exclusively.This is the problem with the crossbow yes its a bit slower to reload but the difference is so small that it doesnt really make any difference at all. The result is that when you get the crossbow all other bows with the exception of one become redundant. If it was up to me I would increase the damage that crossbows do but make the reload significantly slower than for bows.

You guys get it. I don't really understand why so many people can just ignore overpowered stuff like this.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:49 pm

Crossbows are fine, no need to mess with them.

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:40 am

Actually thats another lore mess up by bethesda I think. they've been in past games and the dwemer didnt make them

The Dwemer crossbow is an ingenious device that permits someone with only modest training and skill to fire a missile bolt massive enough to penetrate heavy armor. The Imperial Legion's mass-produced version is somewhat less effective, and most Imperial missile troops and hunters use the more popular short and long bows.

That's a quote from Morrowind, and it shows that the Dwemer did in fact make them. Morrowind is the only TES game before Dawnguard that had crossbows.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Crossbows#Crossbows

» Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:34 am

Crossbows are supposed to be a harder hitting but slower to reload weapon.