Consider these two recipes:


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Troll Fat + Ectoplasm

Troll Fat + River Betty

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Both of those recipes create the same poison, a Damage Health poison.
However, the second recipe creates a DRASTICALLY STRONGER version. (More than double as deadly!!!!).
Interestingly... River Betty is a cheaper ingredient than Ectoplasm.


I have run tests using weight as a controlled variable with the same results.




The conclusion: Individual Ingredients will make stronger or weaker potions of the same effect and neither the price or weight of the ingredient tells you how.

Thank you for this rather useful information!

*awards science project ribbon*

Thank you kindly good sir.

I spent an hour trying to determine the mathematics of this curious phenomenon by running controlled experiments - and could only conclude that it isn't based on value or weight.

Which means there must be a third (invisible) value of ingredients that alter the alchemy equation.

When the Creation Kit is released this puzzle will be revealed.

Just a quick note, ectoplasm costs more as it is harder to get (from an in game perspective). The rarest ingredients are not always the most deadly. But I have noticed the same with some other potions and poisons aswell, though I can remember the ingredients off the top of my head.

Edit: that hidden control is probably a spell effect on the item with varying magnitudes e.g on the ectoplasm damage health .25 and on the river Betty the same effect has a higher magnitude such as .5

Disclaimer: these are speculations that seem to fit numbers am or may not be accurate

Sounds like ingredients have a major, and a minor effect, rather than equivalent effects.

I remember doing research in Oblivion and figuring out, in the absence of cows, that shepherds pie which provided Cure Disease, Shield, Fortify Agility, and Dispel could only have been created with;
Ectoplasm, Clannfear Claws, Bog Beacon Asco Cap, and a Leek.

I stopped eating Shepherds Pie from that point onwards. Its like the Elder Scrolls kebab, its amazing.. until you find out whats in it.

An interesting experiment wold be to combine trolls fat+ectoplasm+ river betty and see what the resulting potion strength is and also see if the order in which the ingredients are mixed has an effect on the resulting strength of that or if it just takes the strongest effects present.

Mmm troll fat.

Mmm!

That is the theory I am running with, yup!

It seems that each ingredient has an invisible value rating how rare it is, and the rarer the ingredient, the stronger the potion becomes. Because neither monetary value nor weight of the ingredients have a direct impact on the potion result... yet SOMETHING does.

I tried all of that, naturally. What happens if you include the third ingredient is it assumes the magnitude of the stronger potion without any additional benefit. (i.e - it becomes a Troll Fat + River Betty poison and the Ectoplasm is completely wasted)

I'm pretty sure the value of the potion made affects how much alchemy skill you get for making it, useful to note as alchemy is a [censored] to level

I have had variants of potion strength based on my hap-hazard combining of ingredients. I was wondering if the variation comes about based on what position the effect is on both ingredients -in your example, Damage Health - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. So if it is the first effect on the two ingredients you combine, then it is a weaker potion or poison than, say, if it is the second effect on one item and the 4th effect on the other, meaning it would be a stronger version. The thought being that uncovering the 3rd or 4th effect takes some time and experimentation.

Just a vague theory, I enjoy doing the alchemy, because I obsessively harvest everything, but the detailed math behind it I don't need to get into too deeply.

There goes the idea of dis tilling a stronger poison by adding more toxins. Boo! And thing is river betty is easier to get than ectoplasm so that shoots the idea of it being based on rarity. I personally thing it's each item has different magnitudes for the poisons.

There are other examples, by the way.

For example, when making a Fortify Health potion.... if you include a Giant's Toe, the potion drastically increases in value AND duration (the magnitude stays the same).

Further evidence that each ingredient has more variables associated with it than simply "effects, value, weight".

*goes to farm trolls and find river betty*

Are you at a point where you can see all 4 affects of the item.

Just throwing a theory out, is it possible that an ingredient can have the same effect twice? and the game mechanic doubles up the power as a result. Like I say, just a theory, I don't have a character build that can prove or disprove.

I've noticed this, but I couldn't track it down. If you add salt pile to add a slow effect, or human heart to add frenzy, do you maintain the high dmg value? I'm pretty sure that's what I was using but I can't remember off hand.

That's the one I was thinking off. In that case though it is a rarer ingredient. Also what happened if you removed the trolls fat from the equation and tried river betty with ecto?

I love the research that goes I to alchemy now you have to work to figure out the ingredients and effects instead of just getting them as you skill up.

Oh - the stronger the potion you make, the more it contributes to levelling Alchemy, yes.

I wasn't actually questioning that, though.

What I have discovered (and am trying to calculate how it works) is that individual ingredients, depending on what they are, will alter the final result of the potion. It's neither the weight nor the value of the ingredient that does. There is some mystery variable.

That's a very intriguing theory! I like it! I am going to go test it right now. That would definitely explain all this variable-ness.

Sadly that's not the case. If it was when yo mixed them you would get the duplicate effects revealed. Also just checked the wiki, no ingredients have the same effect multiple times.

It'd be worth testing if the 'multiplier' ingredient has the same effect on other potions it can create. That way you'd know whether it's just the ingredient that's flagged as a 'super ingredient', or whether it's one of it's effects, or even if it's only in combination with specific other ingredients.

Damn. No, I just tried that theory - did not work. I made potions where the shared effect was in position 1 and some of them were weaker compared to other potions beyond.

So back to the drawing board.

I am damn confused! I can't sit idly by why some mathematical conundrum sits unsolved! BAH! BAH I SAY!

Thats what I was thinking by removing the tolls fat from the equation. Also let's look at the results in mixing these 3 so far with the other damage health ingredients, such as trolls fat+ nightshade then river betty+nightshade and ectoplasm+nightshade. There could be some interesting results there.

Just tested it. River Betty does NOT multiply any other of the effects it shares. It made no difference to potions of Fortify Carry Weight, Fortify Alteration, or Slow. It only altered the effect of Damage Health - and drastically so.

The mystery deepens!

There are. Deathbell + Nightshade (for example) makes a Damage Health poison halfway between the super strong River Betty version and the default low.

So yeah. This is getting ludicrously convoluted.

There are LEVELS of strength... and I am struggling to locate a pattern of how it works. We need the damn Creation Kit already! LOL