Shame. I read it and agreed with you.

Eh, this is an older thread. I'd use the same argument somewhere else.

I think the problem with Windhelm is the terms given for the refugees.


They owe no allegiance to any jarl, and pay no taxes. And the refugees settled en masse in Windhelm exclusively. From correspondances between Tal Marog Ker and Chimaere Graegyn, they actually did seem to get along alright for a small while.


Eventually the inhabitants felt put out by the hospitality they had given. Bad blood resurfaced, many remembered the wars and fighting they had gotten in with the Dunmer, and wondered why they had been allowed to basically take up half the city without giving anything in return. The elves in the town seem to corroborate this noting that when the nords saw them contributing they loosened up their attitude.

I can't say I know why Ulfric's banning the dockworkers from the city, though. Beast races have never been well liked by men or mer(Even the empire treated them like second-class citizens), so it may indeed be racism. Possibly he doesn't trust the motives of a race that can be completely taken over by a bunch of sentient trees and forced to do things against their will at any time. Maybe he's trying to avoid conflict between them and the dunmer. Could be several things. Given that he never voices any opinions about other races when you actually talk to him(Besides the Thalmor themselves), it's hard to tell.

The Nords and Dunmer are ancient enemies, so it seems unlikely that the stormcloaks would accept a dark elf as a "true nord". Morrowind also has (or had, before it was reduced to a smoldering argonian-occupied wasteland) strained relations with the empire, but siding with the imperials seems somewhat more plausible.

It's ironic that all these Nords fight in the name of "Talos", but act against multiculturalism. He's the one who started the Empire as we've known it in TES games and wanted to unify Tamriel. He's like an Alexander the Great type. Nothing they do makes sense in reference to Talos. Among other things, he even had an affair with a Dunmer. And was also open minded about mages. He didn't have any kind of backwoods mentality.

Tiber and Co were rather racist themselves. Wulfharth wanted to wipe out every single elf. Tiber was a power-hungry backstabber.(Betraying Cuhlecain the King of Falkreath at the time, his advisor Zurin and the Underking Wulfharth)

I'd say the Stormcloaks are rather similar to http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy-0.

He was a politician and warlord. Not a racist. You can't have illigitimate Dunmer halfbreed children and be a Nord racist, I think. He banged heads with Wulfarth too. It's not like they were best friends.

Talos is Wulfharth is Tiber is Zurin Arctus. Through their acts all three mantled Lorkhan to ascend as Talos.

Well, they're avatars of some common entity, but not the same people.

I've never made much sense of that though. It kind of reminds me of some Hindu myths, where multiple avatars run around all over the place.

You're using his exploitation of Barenziah as a proof that he's some enlightened warlord? Alexander the Great conquered and subdued because he believed himself a better kind of human, and wanted to impose a pan-Greek idealism on vast stretches of humanity whether they wanted it or not. When it suited him, he slaughtered without mercy. Tiber Septim is indeed a lot like him, but it's ironic that he or his empire are held up as some kind of multicultural paradise.

They're all talos because no one can tell them apart from each other. Yes they're seperate people, but the universe can't tell them apart. This is quite noticeable in that they still don't know who the underking really was. History records him as Wulfharth, In Daggerfall he calls himself the battlemage Zurin Arctus. The note in the heresy that they didn't want anyone to think tiber was in two places at once. The people had so much trouble telling the three apart and which did what it eventually makes no difference which was which in TES metaphysics. They're all Talos. It's part of why the CoC becomes Sheo, no one could tell the difference between the CoC and Sheo. Some weird guy shows up on the isles, old sheo disappears, and the new guy says he's sheo. Sheo changes forms all the time. I guess he really is Sheo. Belief shapes the mythopoeic forces of TES.

I never said anything about him being enlightened. I just said it wasn't like the Stormcloaks (that doesn't take much, really). But yeah, the Alexander comparison is apt. I'm glad we agree.

What the Nords did to the snow elves?? Really? Who started that little event in the first place out of racism and feeling threatened in the first place? For the love of god try reading some things. Also when the Nords do back them into a corner , they go to the dwemer WHO ARE NOT GD DWARVES they are mer. The Dwener distrusted them and enslaved them , making them eat poisonous food that made them go blind. The Falmer that resulted were a product of their supposed OWN KIND.

Possibly you misconstrue the very presemce of other races in the ranks of the imperials as tolerance. Yes , tolerance because every able-bodied (insert random race here) is sorely needed. Prove yourself , you're one of them. Last time I checked both sides do this to you. The Dunmer inhabit a supposedly rundown section of the city , but I don't believe I ever heard anybody say anything like ,"Omg if they try improving/repairing anything , I'm gonna go nuts." They were given a section of the city , A SECTION. Even after the death of the high kind Ulffric tolerates them , you know , that word people like to only appoint to the imperials. The Argonian thing I started to understand after reading about the relations between those races. It's actually a fitting assignment of iving spaces. A leader has to make uncomfortable choices every day this choice just happens to involve races outside of his main sphere of interest.You could almost look at that situation and think , well , he doesn't like them , and killing them or expellling them would have almost no effect on the city. Maybe lose a food vendor that sells a crapton of suspisious goods.

Racism exists in this game , at least it's set in a time period where racism was a tool of basic survival. Some random lizard guy just walks out of the middle of nothingness to your house , do you let him straight into your house to have dinner with your family , or do you mistrust him/her until they've proven trustworthy? Hell this scenario applies to your own race let alone things you've never seen before. It was a function of survival living in that type of environment. I'm beginning to suspect some of these people having a huge problem with racism in this game have never in their lives been a victim of simple betrayal and live some kind of fairy-tale life where absolutely everybody on the planet is filled with love and kindness. Well they're not , there's alot of us that don't subscribe to default racism for sure. But there's still massive amounts of people that embrace racism like a religion still in an age where it has no place.

Play the game the way you wish to play it , it's yours to do as you see fit , but don't project your modern personal views on a hard land with serious imminent dangers that sometimes result from race difference. It's a real and ironically useful way of thought for survival in this situation , and all the races in the game are guilty of it to an extent , including those squeky-clean imperials some seem to like so much. At least you can grudgingly respct the Nords for being upfront and honest about it , this doesn't mean you have to like them , it just means don't underestimate them for what they say. Besides , trying to play a truly enlightened non-racial Dunmer is a real hoot , maybe I should try that but you'd definitely be one in a million!

Compared to how things were without the Septim Empire, it was. The Septim Empire increased commerce, reduced conflict, eliminated the institution of slavery, gave freedom of worship (at least until the late second century 4E) and introduced the idea of all races living together in harmony.

The problem is just that people exaggerate the racism of the Stormcloaks. A number of Stormcloak jarls have members of other races in their court. There are a couple of drunks in Windhelm, and one punk guy in Riften, who talk about ridding Skyrim of elves. The rest want to run the Thalmor out and may be suspicious towards outsiders, but that applies to Nords as well. Maybe people who haven't played a Nord PC don't realize that. Galmar asks you why an outsider would want to help the Skyrim rebellion, the guards in Markarth warn you that people there don't like outsiders, etc. So there is not that much difference between the Nords, even the Stormcloaks, and the imperials. It's also not like the imperials don't look down on the other races. Just listen to how Tullius talks about Nords.

Except when it suited them otherwise. And most of that is in the past... the distant past.

Wouldn't it be funny if a Stormcloak victory actually helped the Dunmer?

Think about it: if the Empire wins, the Dunmer are treated better and the balance is maintained. If the Stormcloaks win and Ulfric becomes high king then he can consolidate his power. This means that since I he doesn't have to worry about the Dunmer rebelling against him while hes fighting the Empire he can move from neglecting the Dunmer, and other races, and start outright mistreating them. Eventually this would push the Dunmer into open rebellion. With their numbers increasing from the constant stream of refugees, and since the rebellion is based in the Nord capital of Windhelm, it would be devastating to the young nation. With the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire looking for any sign of weakness, Skyrim would be forced so sign a quick peace with the rebellion. This would most likely (and ironically) lead to Windhelm and its hold becoming a independent Dunmer city-state similar to Orsinium.

Something to think about.

Fair enough. I mean, I can create stories where an outsider helps out the Cloaks myself. I haven't thought of a Dunmer one, but I probably could. My favorite concept is a Redguard, partly 13th warrior inspired, partly inspired by Riddike from Pitch Black. And a Redguard with experience against the Thalmor, and inspiration for Nords that they can fight off Thalmor without the Empire's help. Maybe someone who eventually becomes a go between for Skyrim and Hammerfell after all is said and done.

In this society, the aftermath wouldn't be unified like the Empire, but autonomous nations allying with each other.

Actually, they don't really harbor any resentment toward each other in the game. The Dunmer, in fact, more or less saw their being conquered as 'just desserts' for enslaving the Argonians. They pretty much accepted the fact that they were getting what they deserved. Plus, where does it state that the Argonians enslaved the Dunmer? If you talk to the Dunmer in Riften, he was raised Argonian after they invaded and killed his parents. He wasn't enslaved by them.

You forgot one small detail: the Imperials only eliminated slavery where it conveniently benefited them--particularly where it came to their own liberation begining with Queen Alessia's Cyrodilian slave revolt in 1E:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cyrodiil

It also doesn't seem as though abolition was on top of their agenda when it came to Vvardenfell either. Which is exactly why Morrowind is now the New Black Marsh for the Hist in the South, and a completely inhospitable ash apocalypse in the north.
No wonder the ancestors of the Skyrim Dunmer ran for cover.

In all fairness to the Imperials, I do credit the Imperial emperors for changing Cyrodil from the agarian center it was under the earlier Nord emperors. The empire's gradual transformation into a flourishing merchantile trading center, was perhaps the most intelligent and strategic move it's leadership ever took. This allowed the empire to fully exploit its strategic geographic location as the central hub of Tamriel. It's also what allowed Cyrodiil to grow into the cosmopolitan center it was at its peak in the Oblivion era. It's too bad the ongoing ineptude of its leadership continues to debilitate it. It's even worse now that Hammerfell and an insurgent faction in Skyrim realize the Imperials are a bunch of phonies.

That is affirmative. Was going to join them, but they called me lizard too many times..

Anyone know why the Dark elves are forced to live in Skyrim? especially in Windhelm.

They aren't forced.

Red Mountain erupted about 160 years before Skyrim takes place. Afterwards the argonians attacked southern morrowind. Refugees went to Cyrodiil, solstheim, and skyrim. The Dark Elves have no obligation to stay. They can live anywhere they want. So long as that place isn't thalmor territory or Black Marsh.

Sorry, it's the other way around. The Argonians slaughtered everything in their path. The Dunmer enslaved the Argonians.

Sure, I'm certain the Dunmer think that's just peachy.

Which is much worse than trying to cut off your head for no reason and without a trial.