umm... excuse me?

they aren't "stealing" your stuff, they are copying & re-hosting it, there's a very big BIG difference between the two

infact it completely impossible for them to steal it, unless it's a physical object, all they can do is take credit for it, which is plagiarism and still leagues away from what copying is all about

aye very much so

"permission culture" is probably one of most frustrating and self-sabotaging things about most art (whether paintings/drawings, mods or code) communities is this constant fixation on obtaining permission

let's get real people, bits aren't physical objects, you can't steal them, all i can do is replicate it and put somewhere else, i cannot deprive you of it

i can understand needing permission if, say, i was wanting to burrow your cup for a bit, because if i take it you don't have it, but with a mod i can make another copy of it, now we both have it, to ask is waste both our times & add an unnecessary step to something that should be pretty simple

all it does is add this extra layer of complexity where there should be none, emails get lost, deleted .etc people don't have time to constantly check to see if, oh, maybe somebody wants permission for something, and they aren't always around

a self-sabotaging system, instead of spending precious energy on actually doing something with the work, alot of is completely wasted on this "permission" thing that amounts to little more than this compulsive need to pat something every-time you set it down to make sure it's there

well, what i think they meant was people who spend all this time on something and then want to control what everybody does with their copy of it

the more time i spend on something, the more i want people to share it freely, without need or hassle (for both parties) to contact me for every tiny little thing they do

it's like this, if i'm gonna go out of my way for days and weeks to make something, i want it to be seen, letting people spam it everywhere only helps serve that purpose, that's why memes like LOLcats are so popular

@ Suja
It's about etiquette and respect amongst modders. You really don't see what they're doing as wrong?

Perhaps read the part of my post where I stated that I want people people to download my mod....the correct version...the one that is supported and updated by me to ensure people a trouble free experience...the one that gives credit where credit is due...the place where I can help if there is a problem...oh I am sorry that is most selfish of me to try and ensure people can actually enjoy my work.

Theft is theft. If you believe that something digital and non physical has no value and taking it cannot constitute theft then I suggest you take that up with the multi million dollar corporations fighting to ensure that their music and games are not pirated. They seem to think it constitutes theft and so do the copywrite laws enforced over and over.

We are off the point here. Please, if you disagree that is fine. However posting a wall of text about it is non constructive and has actually been insulting and actually off topic. We are here to discuss FilePlanet ignoring modders, not to debate the motives of modders or to insult modders that find FilePlanet's actions offensive.

Actually, *now* I remember what the caveat was about assets and which Beth could lay claim to:

Any piece of a mod that was created with Bethesda's toolset (The CS, etc) was their property. Any piece of a mod that was created with an independent 3rd party tool (like a Nif editor, a scripting program, a texture editor, a wave editor, etc) was the property of the creator.

That brings up joint-ownership problems of course, but Beth doesn't automatically get rights to any and all mods produced. That was one of the reasons I programmed Streamline in an external script editor (just remembered that), so that I would have claim to the entire thing.

Edit: I'm still going to advocate timed-out mod packages as the way to combat this from a modding perspective. Legal stuff is messy, and I highly doubt Beth will go to bat for the community.

Regardless of what you name it, it is still dishonest. We can debate the legality and terminology all day, and in the morning, FP's actions will still be morally objectionable.

I'm just gonna go ahead and take credit for everything you make from now on.

Sure you can. If I were to go torrent a copy of Skyrim right now, I would be stealing it. I am obtaining it through means other than that of which the creator intended. i.e. stealing their product. Though you cannot steal mods, as they are free. So if you take them for free... you aren't stealing them. But you can certainly steal 'bits or data'.

That's a nice quip, but it's not how the law is structured.

The legal concept of a derivative work, in the context of copyright, has everything to do with the nature of the creative content, and has little to do with mechanical processes.

If you write a story which builds on a story someone else wrote, it does not matter if you used their typewriter to write it. (Or, it does not matter for copyright purposes -- if you stole their typewriter to write it, that could be a big deal... but it's not really not a copyright issue.)

the one & only argument regarding permission that ever made any sense to me: version consistency

there seriously needs to be some sort of database that lists the latest versions of mods (and make it so only the person who made a mod can update their part of the list) so one can check and not have to worry about incorrect versions being listed elsewhere, you'd already what version to look for and probably not ever find the incorrect ones

i don't know how it'd deal with conglomerate mods, i guess the person who put it together needs to define it

That's someone that I'm really keen to say hello, how are you good friend?
To your comment, I agree with what you say but looking ahead this has the trademark of a commercial venue between Bethie and Steam, so I truly believe they certainly have already set up the mechanisms and incentives to make sure the gross flow of mods will head to Steam, remember the big boys are now interested in mods, this is no longer a community only venue run by amatuer modders and dedicated webmasters. I'm truly convinced that many modders will seek greater exposure and maybe recognition and/or financial rewards if teaming up with Steam, soon we'll see how this is going to end up.

I got caught up in what others were saying and didn't get a chance to say that I actually think that this is a brilliant idea.

Try and send APY a message to his account here and see if he could be of assistance, not sure if he still check his Beth Messages after all..

http://www.gamesas.com/user/1732-apy/

Thanks. I have a mod in the works right now, planning stages until CS is out. It will rely on SKSE, and I will absolutely try to program in timeouts on each iteration until such a time as it is done, or I hand it off.

I can't think of any other ways to snub FilePlanet and what they are doing, but its a start.

so, a vestigial courtesy that is not really needed anymore, but is kept around just because it's what the community is built on, not a wrong thing to do, just an out-dated method, there's still heaps of people who honestly believe copying = stealing (or plagiarism, which is what i think they actually mean)

i think it's time for a re-definition & update on how things are done


i know what you're saying, it is still leaps and bounds away from copying something & putting on a website, just about every single time i've seen it done they copy the original credit with the file, infact copying can be the greatest ally in determining who actually made something

while you can say plagiarism = stealing, copying is definitely =/= stealing, copying can be used to plagiarize but they are ultimately not the same thing

the faster people understand the difference the faster people learn when something is actually stealing and when something isn't

People here are using stealing in the English rather than legal sense of the word. New idea! I'm going take the beta version of all of your mods, put it on random, popular websites and ask everyone to email you when it doesn't work.

My mod "license" is always "do whatever you like with this." Regardless, having to field support requests for outdated mods is not cool.

From now on, my Readmes will include a line in the contact section saying something like, "If you got this from FilePlanet, it was not uploaded by me. FilePlanet has a habit of rehosting out-of-date (and therefore buggy) release, so if it hoses your game you're on your own for support. You might consider downloading this mod from a site that doesn't take content without permission from other sites so you have access to the most up-to-date version, support, and an active community."

Not to throw too many stones here, but you're fairly new to this community. Things have been changing and evolving here for many years, but the modders have always had understandings about etiquette, respect, and how to treat each other's work. That included sites where mods were uploaded - admins at those sites have always respected modder's requests and wishes when it comes to keeping work available or taking it down.

FilePlanet is completely ignoring that history, and throwing etiquette and respect out the window. They are completely outside the community, and are akin to a leech in my opinion. They contribute nothing, but take what they want and use it to further their own benefits without respecting author's wishes.

It may be hard to understand, not having been here very long, but there IS an understanding of how things happen here, and what is considered right and wrong.

FYI, I wouldn't touch such a mod with a 10-foot pole. Either that, or I'd rip out the timer. I know well what I'm doing when I add mods to my game, and if I have a reason to keep using an old version of a mod, by gum I am going to stick with the old version. It seems like a bad idea to cripple a mod's longevity just to give the finger to FilePlanet. (Has no-one learned that DRM doesn't work?)

It has come up. In 2003 a modder named Cait proposed that the community burn mods onto a CD and give the CDs to people who donated to her favorite charity, War Child. The team would purchase the discs and pay for the shipping costs out of their own pockets. The team would handle no money. Folks had only to say that they had donated to War Child and the team would send them a CD. Bethesda said no.

A modder named Thread Whisperer came up with a different idea: offer modder's resources. Meshes made in 3ds Max, Textures made in Photo Shop, scripts written in Notepad, ect. Nothing on the disc would be created using the Construction Set. Again Bethesda said no.

Pete Hines, in PMs to the team, made Bethesda's position unequivocally clear: anything created for a Bethesda game fell under Bethesda's legal jurisdiction. It didn't matter what software had been used to create the thing. Hines confirmed this position again in 2004 to Ronin49. GStaff confirmed this position again in 2007.

Myself, I doubt that this could be defended in court, if challenged. However, if a corporation comes after you with a cease and desist order you have two practical options: cease and desist or fight the order in court. And until somebody fights this position in court it can be considered, in effect, a law of the land.

We need to keep this on topic, Meek has a plan that is reasonable and she has clearly stated what she needs to pursue it.

Not sure you're fully understanding how the timer would work, but that's cool. If the user doesn't upgrade their game, or SKSE, or the mod.. everything keeps running along perfectly. If they upgrade SKSE for whatever reason, they'd need to upgrade the mod. Not a big inconvenience. If they upgrade the mod, naturally they would want to upgrade SKSE (or might simply have to due to new features). It wouldn't simply "timeout" X weeks later arbitrarily.

He's right though, and you're wrong. The CS EULA can only be applied to things directly created by the CS. Sticky as legal issues are, it can't even be applied to game assets - that's what the game EULA is for. So the only thing the CS EULA can lay any claim to at all are the ESP files generated by it.

Meshes/Textures/Audio are generated using external utilities, and unless you're using a game asset as your base, are entirely original works. Copyright on those falls to you, not Bethesda, and their license cannot cover it AT ALL. All of these files exist independently of the game itself and could be used in any sort of project.

Back to the subject at hand. In the OP, Meek mentioned that someone got a mod removed once. That was probably me. I don't remember exactly how I managed it, but A Brotherhood Renewed had showed up there one day. Could have been their internal ticketing system, could have been an email to corporate, but whatever it was, they took it down without question.

Now of course I find two of my mods sitting on their site again, both uploaded without my permission, and this time they deleted the entire account I had to create to get into the customer service ticketing system. They didn't just delete the ticket.

I'm not sure WTF IGN is up to these days, but they're a large corporation. They know better than to pull stuff like this. I'm sure they'd leap on us like flies on poop if we started heisting their gaming articles and posting them to other websites without permission.

Since a site like Fileplanet relies on advertising and search hits to survive, one way you can combat them is to send a https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/dmca-dashboard?hl=en to have the site delisted. Some folks reported this gives good results. I've got a request pending for the two uploads of mine that are sitting there. It has yet to be acknowledged in any way though.

IGN Corporate would also be foolish to ignore a properly constructed DMCA notice sent to them with the details. If they won't process this stuff through their normal channels, step it up. Your work is YOUR WORK and you have every right to control its distribution as you see fit. Despite what a couple of naysayers in this thread have said.

As for this idea of time-bombing your mods, I think that's as evil as what FilePlanet is doing. We have no more right to dictate to the users which versions they use and for how long they use them than FilePlanet does in stealing our stuff and offering it without our permission. I delete stuff I find has that sort of thing embeded in it and the security industry considers it malware. Let's just not go down that road.

There's another factor to all this as well: some mods use resource files or assets from other authors, who might have specific requirements for credits or other requests as part of their usage agreement. For example, the source images I've used in some of my mods are available for general non-commercial use as long as some form of clear acknowledgement is made crediting the source (which is all I ask for myself as well.) This is why I specify to be contacted before anyone uploads my mod elsewhere, so I can mention these requirements explicitly.

Somehow my Enhanced Night Skyrim found its way onto Fileplanet too, but only a single part of it (just the color galaxy, and not the stars at all which are the main component) as if whoever uploaded it didn't know or even care what they were uploading. They also left off all the credits, and most of the description. After mentioning this on one of their http://blog.fileplanet.com/2011/11/25/shout-worthy-skyrim-texture-mods/ and sending an email to their support address (fpops@ign.com) I was able to get the file and description updated properly to the latest full version. They were quite apologetic about the incident and very helpful in getting it resolved - so not everyone at Fileplanet is to blame, at least (they did mention that the file came through their "Public Queue" system, which I guess means the anonymous uploads made by the general public.)

Interesting, I do remember Cait and some of the wonderfull stuff produced for Morrowind. I think that incident was slightly before my time, sad to hear it went down that way.



Don't think anyone's trying to derail the topic, just a few tangents going on. Most of us are behind any positive action that furthers protection of modder's work, I think.

Oh! Okay. That is a thing that I would entirely not use the word "timer" for. I'd call that fairly good design: making the mod check that the right version of SKSE is installed.

Even so, SKSE updates don't necessarily break mods. In fact, SKSE updates breaking plugins is a symptom of early development, not the norm we'll have over the next few years. We should expect that SKSE will become backward-compatible, just like OBSE did, so mods just need to check for a minimum version. That was standard practice, and why Wrye/OBMM/etc had OBSE minimum-version checking commands in their install script languages.