Finally watched the 4th episode, what the [censored]????I'm traumatized for life.

Wow, just wow. No Snow in the 4th Episode, but a very surprising birth. Now you can call it fantasy.

Because the white walkers and dragons weren't enough?

I agree, dat birth...

That's one reason, though in Martin's world, the do-gooders often end up doing the most harm. That's as true of Dany's arc as it was of Ned's. In a world like this, though, I think there is an advantage to having a ruling family who has some supernatural backup and big guns (in this case dragons). That gives them the mantle of rulership, which is better than having dozens of lesser families tearing the realm apart trying to claw their way to power. The Targaryens are also the remnants of Valyria, and in the confrontation with the Others, we've seen how important Valyrian artifacts are. My pet theory is that it was the removal of the Targaryens from Westeros that is allowing the Others to make an incursion.

Yeah, that's one of the things I like about the story...the "good guys" aren't put on a pedestal.

I think Dany is necessary to fight the Others, though I don't think the Others particularly care what 'chair' she's sitting on when she does it. I don't think Martin was going for a divine mandate. Or that Aerys sitting on the throne somehow kept the Others at bay.

I prefer Dany because she takes her duties seriously. Robert, Aerys, Joffrey, and even Robb all fail in that respect. Two, she tries to be fair without clinging to hidebound notions of honor like Ned and Stannis. Three, the vast majority of the people of Westeros seem like they'd willingly accept her as their ruler without the need for more bloodshed. Four, she's intelligent and empathetic.

Is she entitled? The whole concept of nobility is entitled. Even the most peon knight expect commoners to grovel before them, so I'd say she's no more entitled than anyone else. She is a bit of a writer's pet. But so is Jon. And Bran.

And you know what? [censored] Bran.

Stannis isn't honourable at all though, the man was . He's more just than honourable, which is different.

I see what you mean, he's very utilitarian. The whole, needs of the many vs the needs of the few malarky, which can either work out really well or really badly.

Im conflicted about him, he wants to do the right thing in the big picture, but does some pretty terrible things and is far to self entitled. That ans

True but as I saw it differently:


All of this said, I'd be okay with Arya killing every other character.

Actually, I'd say he was more deontological than utilitarian. I'd say Renly was utilitarian, as he saw the benefit of him being king for the people of Westeros over the normal line of sucession, as he believed he'd do a better job than Joffrey or Stannis (which he most probably would). Stannis however, had deep set duties that he has to follow (like categorical imperiatives in deontology), regardless of the consequenses to either himself or Westeros. I suppose you could call that honour, but honour is culture dependant. I mean, Victarion believed that his actions are honourable, and they are to the cultural standards of the Ironborn, but we would obviously disagree.

I think Davos Seaworth is a good example as to why Stannis is just rather than honourable. Ned would've probably just pardoned him if he'd been in Stannis' position, but Stannis saw that, as he said (I think in the book as well as the show) that 'the good doesn't wash out the bad, just as the bad doesn't wash out the good'. So to me, that's justice, rather than honour.

EDIT: Sentient Surfer, this can count as a response to your post...

Fair points.

And I've now learned the word 'deontological.'

My A Level philosophy course isn't a waste after all!

I was really surprised to find out I'm glad he's back. I enjoy his character.

Whoa I just watched the first three episodes of season 2 and I'm loving it! It's all starting to come together now and I'm glad I didn't yet read the books as I can enjoy it better. Though I wish there was more focus on Jon Snow and the other Guardsmen as they journey North, they have been the most interesting aspect for me since the first scene of the first episode. It was like a black metal video.

I have a question for those who have read the books: do you feel like the series is just too "big" for a tv show to do it justice?

As someone who watches the show but hasn't read the books, I find that I know enough about certain characters (like the Starks, the Lannisters, Dany, etc.) to care about what happens to them, and I can't wait to see their storylines continue every week. On the other hand, there are characters that I feel like I know very little about (like the Greyjoys, the redheaded woman, etc.), so I'm less interested in their storylines. Sometimes I can't even keep straight who is who. Maybe it's just me though...

I normally lose interest in reading a book if I've already seen the movie/tv show, but in this case I might have to read the books.

You will see more of the Night's Watch in this week's episode.

Probably, but they're doing a pretty good job of it and I'm glad they're trying and being as faithful to the books as they are. Martin would never sign off the rights to anyone for this reason- because he didn't think it could be done- but D & D convinced him that HBO could and would do it.

I have read all the books and for the most part the series does a great job. Of course the books go more in depth and have a few minor differences.

A bigger question I have going forward is what is HBO going to do in later seasons. Both A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons are not nearly as good as the first 3 books in the series. Of course some like them, but overall the reader reviews of his last 2 books are much more negative. The main concern I have is that the plot moves at a glacial pace in his most recent works and it will be more difficult for HBO to make the series compelling.

I'm imagining that they're gonna combine them into two series, because I can't imagine them doing an entire series without Dany, Jon Snow or Tyrion. I'd be happy if they added a load of random violent scenes with the Ironborn [censored] [censored] up for good to keep it interesting as well.

The power of suggestion is incredibly... powerful. What if the reviews for the last two books were very good and positive?

I haven't read aFfC or aDwD yet. Most of the hate I hear about the two are based solely on how long a person had to wait for them to be released, or their expectations were shattered. I don't read reviews anymore, nor do I trust them. It's been 12 years since SoS was released, a different time really. I think if SoS was released in 2012 the reviews would be totally different.

I understand things move slow in aFfC but I've heard some say they prefer the political aspects compared to the action packed SoS. I also heard that some POV characters in aFfC are lacking in character and whatever. It's all subjective really.

A lot of the criticism is valid, even discounting all the bitterness at how slow GRRM churns them out. AFfC is where the books stopped working as individual books - AFfC seemed like the first half of the book, which presumably meant ADwD would have been the second half, which isn't the case at all. ADwD instead felt like the introduction to a new trilogy, spending considerable time introducing completely new characters (really, does the game of thrones need to be any more complex? I feel like there's a law of diminishing returns at work here). I quite liked AFfC in fact, even though it felt like all set-up and prelude Westeros is a pretty interesting place. And there are a few really spectacular scenes in there (the final one in Dorne is brilliant). But when ADwD completely failed to pay off the dramatic tension you can understand why people might be disappointed.

tl;dr, I'd say that AFfC and especially ADwD needed a good editor to trim maybe 20% of it.

The producers can probably trim a lot of it down. A lot of books four and five are brooding travelogues which take up a lot of space in print but not in a visual medium. I think GRRM really let the material go out of control, he couldn't even include the climactic battle in Essos in ADwD. The producers have shown a willingness to move plot beats around so I wouldn't be surprised if subplots get moved from season five to six and vice versa. The real concern here is that the TV series will catch up with the books, unless GRRM steps up his pace with the last two books.

I heard aDwD is building up the plot, so tWoW is more than likely to be full of action and hopefully well paced.

My thoughts exactly. I particularly liked the pieces of AFFC that ruminated on the events of the past three books through different characters' points of view. Like Jamie talking to his father's brothers about the hunt for the Lightning Lord and his battles with the Young Wolf. It filled in a lot of details. ADwD was just buildup without payoff. And way too much Mereen.


I agree with Hoeris that books four and five will probably be blended together in two seasons so we still get a chance to see all the characters. HBO churns out about one season a year. That's three years until the show catches up to the books. Martin said he'd completed 300 pages of WoW back in March, so he could presumably finish that book in the next three years. I'd think the end of the HBO series would be a great "teaser" for the release of WoW. I highly doubt that either "Winds of Winter" or "A Dream of Summer" will make it to HBO. Maybe Wow, but the next one is way to far off.


Hehe. He still doesn't get my sympathy. Chronologically that chapter happened before the end of ADwD (one might ask why it wasn't included in it) so perhaps his suffering is actually at an end?

EDIT: I happened to reread Feast for Crows over the weekend and I'm now convinced that:

I'm starting to feel that way, yes.

Yes, if it was animated they could have fit alot more of what they left out of a live action show(Battles, all the extra characters, some of the areas and events) But thats just my opinion.

The hunt that Robert went on and the tourney were disappointing even though I know their on a limited budget.

But for what its worth the actors, set designers, artists, etc, are doing a great job.

The books hold so much more when understanding the characters motives, and tons of foreshadowing and red herrings.