There is a significant difference between an entire race with its own set of mechanics and the mesh for a weapon. The weapon mechanics would function exactly the same if the warhammer's visual size were a little smaller. The game engines for Skyrim and Oblivion are slightly cartoony (Oblivion more so) with their small tendency towards rounded edges on structures and furniture, low-res textures (relative to real life), and simplified faces. The appearance and scale of weapons can be changed extremely easily with NifSkope, and thus seem to be more of an artistic choice than anything else.

Furthermore, every single race has mountains of lore written on it accessible in the games. I've never once seen books discussing oversized weapons. You are drawing an extremely false dichotomy between the two.

And that Artistic Choice is the representation of the world. Or was Vivec not divided into an assortment of Pyramid-shaped cantons?

Please reconsider your tone with me.





No I don't. And actually small arms were being fairly widely used by the mid and late 1400s let alone the 1500s. They don't even have those in TES. I am just saying that certain equipment used in TES for warfare are there anachronistically and they wouldn't be there or wouldn't be there along with other items. Secondly TES mirrors the real world very very closely. Those who don't realize it really just haven't studied enough history. There's very little that's actually original and that's not a criticism, that's to be said about ANYTHING out there. Everything has been done to death already before.




It helps to specify.




Obviously physical laws do apply or else none of it would be. The fact that we suspend certain concepts for the sake of the "fantasy" setting is one thing. But disregarding mundane day to day things is simply ignorance in the subject.

Your assumption that smiths can craft things faster because "in game they have a lot of stuff to sell" is non sequitur.




Right and what you are not getting is that it's fairly anachronistic to have both Roman-esque Imperial Power and a Feudal power side by side because one came out of the other.




Actually they are not and specialized straight edge tapered swords were made specifically to be able to pierce through plate armor. Now the trick was getting it to happen since most of the time your opponent is moving. There are factors that go into that whole scenario, but it is possible.




An axe would work, slashing with a sword wouldn't. It wouldn't have the momentum or weight to slash through it.




They're effective in Tamriel...because it's a video game. Massive axes wouldn't work because of their balance and they would be inefficient. I'll show you too:

http://images.wikia.com/elderscrolls/images/b/b5/Lunar_Steel_War_Axe_(Skyrim).png

http://getasword.com/270-335-large/war-axe-axes-medieval-weapons.jpg

The first is of course a Skyrim axe, the latter is an actual medieval axe. The axehead to handle ratio is bizarre in the first one. If you've ever used an axe in combat you'd know that you simply couldn't use the one on the left, not because of any "weight" issue but because of its balanced (or rather imbalanced.) The weight of the handle and the side you are hitting with need to be closer in line so that you can build up momentum and strike hard with it, again and again. Even though the skyrim axe is "bigger" you'd actually get much less force out of it simply because of its poor design.

Next you talk about composite armors. There are composite armors in Tamriel. What do you think netch and chitin armors are? Or look at glass armor, that actually has several layers of different materials.

Perhaps YOU should re-assess your understanding of actual combat and not simply stick to a slavish adherence to things in game. No one is telling you not to enjoy them. Look at things like Star Wars or Star Trek. They do things that simply wouldn't happen. Lasers wouldn't be seen in space, there's nothing to reflect off of or at least not enough of it. Simply trumping it up to "symbolism" is a sort of really devoted fan answer no offense. I mean you do things as you like in your RPs but since we're discussing here a more "realistic" interpretation of Tamriel you should just say "Yeah that's true but i'll stick to what i'm doing" and move on. Not find cop out answers like "oh symbolism" or "oh physics laws are different." Nobody who wrote the lore thought that. They thought it looked cool and put it in with little understanding of the implications.

It's like the issue with horses in Morrowind. "Oh the Dunmer eat horses." And people look at that and say "SEE!? LORE!" No, it's derp. I come from a culture that eats horses and we had some of the best. And this is true for any animal people eat. If they eat them, they tend to raise them.

I mean some of the answers you are giving me here would be like if I brought up how there are no children in Oblivion and you rushing to tell me "Well in Tamriel people come out full grown!!! Symbolism!!!".... come on...

Another false dichotomy. Absolutely NOTHING would change gameplay-wise by changing the size of the weapons, since hitboxes would remain the same. The shape of the cantons of Vivec significantly affects the flow of movement in the city as well as being backed up in lore. The idea that the strict in-game graphical representation of something is how it would actually look is a little flawed, too. Is Morrowind a pixellated land of people with extremely clunky motions of walking and running? Are there really only ten distinct voices in Cyrodiil? Do people in Morrowind really talk only in text boxes, while those in Skyrim and Cyrodiil prefer to repeat the same few lines over and over? Has every guard in Skyrim taken an arrow in the knee at the conclusion of an adventuring career? Do people in Morrowind really never sleep and simply pace about in circles 24/7? Do people in Morrowind look like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-npc-Darvam_Hlaren.jpg until they cross the Skyrim border, at which point they start lookling like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-race-M-Dunmer.jpg? The point I'm trying to make here is that sometimes what you see in game isn't perfectly representative of lore.

And I think that the end-result should be taken at face value. I think that trying to seperate TES into a "Realistic" interpretation vs. an "According to the Games" representation is counterproductive.

Instead of going blindly from anolyzing historical combat, we should anolyse and apply the way the game and lore displays and handles combat (Conversations and books are more accurate for this than the animations and tactics created by the game engine) and work from there to figure out what kind of world Tamriel is. Yes, Tamriel is "Like Earth, except..." However, the problem with the argument you're laying out is that it is explicitly ignoring much of that "Except" clause.
You're inverting my statement - "Gameplay Mechanics" that can be 'dismissed' are those that result from limited resources - Primitive models, limited dialogue, awkward AI, compact landscape, etc.

On the other hand, what we are arguing in terms of the Appearances of weapons isn't a case of limited resources - They easily could have gone with realistic weapons and armor (Mount&Blade did, and it has far more primitive graphics than Skyrim or Oblivion), but instead felt that the weapon and armor designs and sizes we see in-game are more accurately representative of the world, even if there isn't quite enough variety due to limitations on mesh files and selection. So, that means while not every sword and axe looks like the ones we see in the games, the designs we see in the games are present and functional.

No, there are more than ten voices in Cyrodiil - However, the ten races do sound distinct from each other, and Elves sound distinct from humans and Beasts sound distinct from both.
The limitations on dialogue in the games is one of the "discardable" results of gameplay mechanics.
And I don't see much of a difference between those elf pictures you linked beyond graphical sophistication - The facial structure and coloration are still the same.

How do we know so much about historical warfare? Historical texts, and the physical designs and proliferations of weapons and armor from real life. I think we should try to use those same standards and apply them to Tamriel to get a more accurate picture of what it's "Really" like - To do anything else is like trying to discern the diet of Chinese people by examining the intestines of a Cuban.

I get that Bethesda could have made more realistic-looking weapons in the game than they did, but more realistic weapons still aren't as aesthetically pleasing to most people as the weapons as shown in the games. Considering that the games are based largely on the quality of their graphics and much less on realism (for reasons you've already outlined, namely that realism isn't as fun), is it that huge of a leap to assume the weapons are another thing where verisimilitude has been abandoned for 'coolness factor?' People have come to expect oversized weapons in their fantasy, and thus it make sense for Bethesda to add them into the game. I'm sure they could have implemented the need to eat into Skyrim (seeing as it was done in New Vegas, which uses a similar engine, by Obsidian), but they didn't for fun factor. All three of us in this argument agree on drawing a line where game mechanics stop and the way Tamriel works begins; we just disagree on the exact boundary. We're arguing degrees here, not principles, and thus it will always come down to opinion more than objective fact. You prefer to stick more closely to the games in your interpretation of Tamriel, while IB likes to model his off the real world, and mine is somewhere in between (I disagree with you on weapons and IB on slavery), and I suspect none of us can be more right than the others.

Ladies, handbags.

Personally, I would side very much with Scow2 on this one. The act of reconstructing and trying to piece together how warfare would have operated in TES is very similar to the task of a historian. We have certain primary sources, and we work from these and common sense to fill in the gaps. Most of all though this is fantasy, so the more we can incorporate the fantastical, the better.

However, this thread as originally written to help people with less knowledge of how wars actually operate to be able to write good war RPs. I actually think it is very well written and hard to find fault with, but really it is just a guide, and right now we are no-mans land in the middle of no RP at all.

This argument can be solved quickly: if one of you lot were the GM, you could decide which path, reality or fantasy, is better. Right now we are in no RP at all, so those kind of boundaries have not been set down, and are going to be. The original guide is just more information to add to your arsenal (yeah more military metaphors look at me go), to decide how you want to call an RP. In a magical world like TES, it is totally okay to ignore many of the rules in there, as magic does override some of them. Or you could choose not too.

Remember, its all about making interesting stories, and its the GM that is meant to step in and sort these problems out. We won't get anywhere arguing here.

EDIT: What Squid said

The guide itself is well-written. However, my issue is that it's best NOT to try and make a dichotomy between "realism" and "Game-represented Fantasy", and instead blend them together. It would be productive to actually take the implications of the diversity of Mixed Units, presence of magic, and effects of the various special materials (Steel tends to be treated like Butter in the presence of Ebony and Daedric weapons, for example), than try to dismiss them out-of-hand because of a lack of 'historical basis' for the weapons and armor. And even then, there's still a little bit of precedent - the gap between Steel and Dwarven weapons is similar to the gap between Bronze and Iron weapons. Steel is as flimsy, maleable, and durable as Paper compared to Ebony or Daedric.

Scow are you serious? How the hell do the races sound different? WTF? One of my best friends is black and he doesn't sound any different than anyone else. Their languages may be different but they don't sound different. I believe we had an argument similar to this one a year ago. Scow, not everyone likes the "unhindered" fantasy you like. EVERY fantasy and Sci fi has laws based off our own. Hell, humans are real and THEY are in fantasy. So are animals, armor, weapons, etc.

IB and I might argue, but the guy knows what he's talking about. While we might have disagreements here and there, as well as he and everyone else (and yeah, maybe he does try to make things too realistic at some points, but he DOES work fantasy in there). Still, things in fantasy are based off the real world.

Steel = paper against Daedric? Why do you think Daedric is 50,000 dollars for a set of armor? I could buy out the Imperial Waterfront with that. Are you kidding me? You can't give an army Daedric weapons. If you do a battle or war oriented RP, it is based off wars in our own world, and thus, the realism comes in, otherwise there would be no set rule base.

I wasn't arguing for the absence of materials presented in TES due to lack of historical precedent, and I suspect IB wasn't either. That would be a rather silly position to take. I was saying the proportions of weapons in the games seem a bit off, and I prefer more realistically shaped weapons in RPs.

As for why Duval didn't include the sections you mentioned, it's because they're out of his area of expertise. To the best of my knowledge, Duval is/was an active duty member of the military (probably the American one, but I could be wrong) and a scholar of military history. He originally posted it in response to scenes of people in RPs cleaving fully armored soldiers in half, prisoners brazenly defying their captors, and fearless units never fleeing from battle. He was trying to help people with their verisimilitude, not tell them how war in TES works. The guide does not draw any distinctions between TES as presented in games and TES as it should be in RPs at all.

Duval wasn't in the military mate. He just studies history and does battle reinactments, iirc.

Wooly, it might be best to read Scow's posts again. He wasn't suggesting anything you are making him out to have. About the racial things, the answer is so common sense it almost isn't worth writing. While it makes senses for people from different cultures/races to have different accents, as they are from different parts of Tamriel, the move to all elves sounding the same in Oblivion was just laziness. The argument that Cyrodiil is more cosmopolitan doesn't work either. Dunmer shouldn't sound like Bosmer, even if they both are living in the Imperial City. If Beth said there was a Cyrodiilic accent everyone should have (which they have never suggested) then that would be okay. Again it is time to do as Scow suggests, look at what we have been given and work UP from there. Gravely voices in Morrowind represent an aspect of the native Dunmer. In Oblivion, they didn't have the time/money/effort to make different elves not the same, so they were all given the same voice actor.

Vincent, not all RACES sound the same. People in different REGIONS would sound the same. A Redguard or Altmer who grew up in Nibenay will have a different accent than one in Hammerfell or Summerset Isle.

So Vvardenfell is how many square miles?




There's nothing to suggest combat in Tamriel is any different aside from magic. "Blindly anolyzing historical combat..." I think that's an oxymoron.




So again there is no text addressing why we have stupidly sized axes and warhammers which wouldn't even work.

Based on, but they still have differences. My concern is that something goes wrong when we throw out what's pretty much explicitly different in TES from history (Weapon shapes, magic functionality, etc) in favor of "Historical precedent" - Again, that's like trying to determine the diet of the Chinese by examining the intestines of a Cuban.

No, you can't equip an army with Daedric - They still use steel because that's the most effective for its cost. My point is that the materials ARE present, and when the rarer materials do show up, they are a SIGNIFICANT advantage (It's one of the Aldmeri advantages over the Empire, despite the smaller armies they can field - An Altmer equipped in elven weapons is pretty much TES's version of a WH40k's Space Marine.)


My problem with this line of reasoning is that it feels a lot like someone looking at the design and aesthetic of Japanese weapons and armor, and saying "None of these are realistic or practical" - then replacing the Katanas, Naganitas, and distinctive armor with the "Much more believable" Long Swords, Halberds, and Mail.

And I love the guide - It's both realistic and consistent with the game lore. My issue is with others interpreting it in manners that shoehorn TOO much "Historical precedent" into them.


On the subject of voices, Facial Structure plays a large role in the resulting tone and accent. In fact, it's possible to discern someone's language and accent from their facial structure alone because of how it shapes their mouths. Humans sound more like other humans because the basic facial structure is the same. However, the alien facial structure of Elves makes them sound remarkably distinct from Humans, and not quite as distinct from each other though it's far more pronounced than the difference in Oblivion. And beast races, because their entire jaw is different, sound completely different from humans and elves. The games try to convey this, to varying levels of success. Apparently, cats have some very sixy Spanish Accents.




About 9000. Vardenfell is roughly 10 Square miles in-game. Space-time is compressed 30x in game (1 hour = 2 minutes in real-time). Time is Linear while Area is quadratic. Square root of 10 gives us ~3.16 for the average length of each side of Vvardenfell. 3.16 x 30 (Uncompressing Space-time) ~ 95 miles average per side. Squaring that for area gives us ~9000. (I preserved all decimals in my calculator).

Does that sound reasonable?

You mean, aside from the dramatic differences in physiological makeup between members of the different races, the presence of completely fantastic materials sporting properties that have little to no precedent in the real world, anecdotes of physical prowess far exceeding known physical limitations, etc... How can Tamriel have so many differences (Which all play large roles in combat) and not have any significant differences in their warfare? The social differences are dramatically different from any differences between cultures in our own world, and look at how varied historical warfare is between the different geo-political regions in our world! (For example, Japan vs. Norman England)

But we have deliberate images of stupidly sized axes and warhammers and of them working. Or are you saying that elves don't have weird, pronounced brows, High Elves don't have awkward, golden skin, Bosmer don't have black-sclera'd eyes, and Redguards don't have dark skin?

The difference being that those Japanese weapons are known to work and are realistically proportioned, unlike the grotesquely oversized axe head on the Skyrim steel axe which IB linked earlier.


The issue is determining how much is too much. I've argued with IB on this one before, and I generally tend to prefer less history than he does. The most notable example is the 'Morrowind as the Eastern Roman Empire' thing he thought of in the IBT planning threads.



That thing about determining language and accent by mouth shape sounds really cool, actually. Where can I read about that? I'd like to learn more.

Also, I happen to like my sixy Spanish Khajiit. Vasha from Skyrim had me laughing out loud.

I could debate the actual effectiveness of Japan's weapons and armor, but I guess I'll instead say that Tamriel's laws of physics are just different enough from our own to permit such 'ridiculously' proportioned weapons to be as practical as they are flashy. As you said earlier - The mesh of the weapon really doesn't make a difference. And a lot of the time, it's more fun to play a character with a distinctive, unique-looking weapon and not be "gimped" by it, even if said weapon really would be impractical in the real world. All we have to go on for the appearances of weapons in Tamriel are the in-game models, so it's probably a good idea to go with those.

Besides, while there are some things that are possible in the game it's best to say aren't actually feasible (Running around while carrying five suits of armor, for instance), studying the NPC equipment of the game can give a more "accurate" depiction of what Tamriel's like. Since it's not only the player using the exaggerated weaponry, it's safe to say that the exaggerated proportions are what's "real".

Also... I don't see the two-handed warhammer sizes as excessive in Skyrim (Especially not compared to the previous games), except Volendrung, which damn better well be unrealistically large because it's the [emphasizing expletive] Hammer of Might! I'll agree that the Inflatable Squeaky Hammers from Oblivion are best treated as re-purposed from a far more menial task, like Construction. However, if someone wants to give their characters (Or outfit a section of their army) with such weapons, they should be free to go ahead and do so without suffering for not conforming to pretentious standards over what's "Realistic" or not.

An army that never retreats and is defiant in the face of death against all sanity is an issue that can break an RP. However, equipping an army with what looks like Carnival Souveniers but are still effective as more "realistic" designs is merely a choice in aesthetic. It's not like they're any more or less likely to misuse the weapon - except possibly exaggerating its slow swing speed and balancing it by over-exaggerating the damage potential as they're depicted in the games - but that's fine and balanced too. The problem arises when you try swinging a 20-lb Whackamole Hammer with the speed of an 8-lb Warhammer and expecting it to be able to hit with the force of a battering ram.

Unfortunately, I'm merely quoting my Anatomy For the Artist textbook I used last quarter, and it was merely a sentence or two stressing the significance of facial muscles.

I don't think the physiological differences are all THAT different. They're all humanoid bipods. As for the materials as fantastic as they are I don't think they are THAT much more amazing than the other with the exception of their ability to sustain enchantments.







The elves are fine. But stupidly sized axes and war hammers make me think of WoW...and that depresses me because this is why I like TES, it isn't WoW or generic fantasy setting number 3123198





Oh yeah speaking of Japan...I always got annoyed how you had people in Tamriel like the Blades wear Roman-esque weapons, Middle Eastern shields and Japanese katanas. Sorry but nobody outside of Japan would of used a katana because outside of that realm the weapon isn't all that effective and wasn't even the main weapon for the Samurai. Even for my own RPs I enjoy my own stupidly sized weapons. I have a character named Vott who has a sword handle with the blade itself being composed of the void which causes an actual "ice blade" to form around it since it svcks up any sort of warmth and light and its huuuge. But for the run of the mil guy won't have some obscenely huge stupid weapon.

The katana was ineffective until the 18th century, when the rest of the world had guns. The thing is, that is a cultural thing, rather than a "oh everyone should get better weapons". That's not a good comparison.

And I don't believe that Capuchin Monkeys are THAT different from Earthworms - Just because you don't believe something (Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) doesn't mean it's as you believe it to be.

You like TES because it lacks a feature it has? What?
In the games, Katanas have always been "Superior" to western-designed weapons, dealing more damage than a Longsword of the same quality. As abstract as Damage is, when both, minimum AND maximum damage is superior for one weapon type with the rest of the stats being equal, it represents overall superiority. So, apparently, Katanas ARE effective weapon in Tamriel. And the Blades have been culturally and traditionally conditioned to be a lot of Akavir-worshipping Weaboos.

>weaboo.

I see you. Hello.

I wonder why Akaviri weapons are so superior, though? Do they have better resources of steel up there? Or do the Blades make their own weapons, weeaboos as they are? If so, it must be another example of the suvivors passing on the best techniques. While we are on the topic of weaboos... Gaiden Shinji.

To get back on topic, I think the key feature of TES lore really is this ridiculous, spaghetti-like inter-tangled mess. Lots of the lore doesn't fit with the other lore. So what happens? Even more lore is written to complicate it further. A jungle becomes a temperate forest. Why? Because a God-Emperor said so. Wait Tiber can do what now?

Its an important point. With TES you NEVER remove because it doesn't fit with what you hold to be true. You add, and add, and add. It is this philosophy that has brought us the universe we all so love.

Alright well from a military perspective there isn't much physical difference between the ten races. If you see the difference between an elf and a human being the same as a monkey and a worm...




No because it DOES have certain elements it bugs me. Stupidly giant two handed axes smell of WoW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqtp08ZSAYE&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boioSxBIkfk

Has some good points. This guy is generally right.




"In the games..."

So moving on...

Not much physical difference between the ten races? I'm sorry, but that's not going to fly. Trying to treat an Army of High Elves like an Army of Bretons is a great way to get yourself fried before you even know what hit you, and it's unlikely you'd inflict any casualties on them. And the Khajiit are a whole category to themselves (Assuming the "Demon Cats of Tenmar"'s claws will do diddly to armored knights will get you a whole bunch of steel-leather-and-gore confetti, and horse-fed cats). Trying to get a pitched battle with the Saxaheel or Bosmer is a great way to waste the lives of your soldiers. Treating Nords like Bretons is a great way to lose all your infantry and Mounted Tin Cans. Treating Bretons like Nords will leave you sorely lacking in magical offensive ability, and get your forces fried by arcane counterattack. Treating Imperials like either Bretons or Nords will find your entire army lacking as its systematically destroyed. And that's hardly even taking culture into account.

When five Bosmer archers can replace fifteen Breton Longbowmen in terms of effectiveness (As in, five Bosmer can put out more arrows more accurately than fifteen Bretons, on average), that leads to HUGE difference from a military perspective. Then, you also have to take into consideration how each race uses its racial strengths in their military structures. The feudal system works for High Rock, where their magical resistance and aptitude for defensive magic allows them to field large numbers of conscripts, while the vast treasures and ancient relics within the Illiac Bay can also allow them to field extremely powerful Knights (I highly doubt ANY Breton Knight would settle for mundane Steel - We're looking at enchanted Elven, Dwarven, Adamantium, and Mithril armors and weapons here) - They have the military demographic to reliably deploy small numbers of self-directed elite warriors with almost unmatched gear, at the cost of consistency between knights. (The guy with the Flaming Adamantine Greatsword is probably a lot more effective than the guy with the Steel Boots of Opening). Altmer use Goblins for most of their ranks, and the low population of Altmer Soldiers allow them to be almost uniformly fitted with the widely-praised Elven Armors (Which is as protective as at least iron plate and as flexible as leather) and weapons ranging from Steel for "Grunts" (Still a cut above an Imperial Legionaire), for Elven for their Veterans, and Glass for their Officers(Who wear an even stronger variation of moonstone-and-quicksilver based armor than other soldiers), and Glass for their most elite warriors - and EACH elven warrior knows several effective spells as part of their sophisticated Training (Given the long lifespans and low propogation of Elves, it gives them a much stronger value for their lives.) The closest precedent to Altmer military doctrine would be something like Conventional U.S. military training and outfitting... except with Goblin footsoldiers.(I'm not even going to bring up the U.S. equivalent of that practice).

Other militaries are equally unique and diverse. Feudal Medieval "armies" are unique to the Bretons of High Rock.

And as Redguard and the Hammerfell Uprising against the Dominion in Skyrim indicate, Redguards in Hammerfell are horribly imba when it comes to military prowess.

He's not talking about Tamriel. In-game sources trump ANY source not talking about Tamriel at all, no matter how qualified said source is dealing with the real world. Furthermore, you're trying to force an ideal onto TES that it does not, and Never has possessed. Your issue with TES' warhammers is about as valid as my issue with Call of Duty's lack of Scottish Claymores and English Longbows. Team Fortress 2 has them! Why doesn't the "most popular FPS series" have them?
Yes, "In the games" - You know, the actual source of all lore. The games these forums are dedicated to? Unless they made a movie I'm unaware of. Or do you consider The Infernal City or Lord of Souls to be the ultimate guide to TES? Outside the games there is no Tamriel, there is no lore. While we can acknowledge that the gameplay doesn't represent the world with accurate fidelity, the in-game sources, dialogue, art objects, and general gist of the numbers used to represent it give the clearest information on what Tamriel is.

You are using video game mechanics to dictate their capabilities. For example even though Bretons are known for their adaptability with magic, that does not make every Breton or even most, full on mages. Like wise there are also great Nordic mages, the Greybeards being among them and so on and so forth. And I was referring to the 10 playable races, not the giant mountable tigers. The video game bonuses (which change every game mind you) are relevant as a general indicator of how that race is unique, not a limitation.





Actually Bosmer archers probably aren't all that great in a battle setting. They are small and one of the weakest races in Tamriel. They probably use short bows which are great for closer ranges. Bretons on the other hand, along with Nords use long durable self bows. Based on discipline (which even the lore notes the Bosmer lack) and common sense I would say the Bretons or the Dunmer have among the best archers military wise. The Bosmer are better for lone shooter sort of situations.





Nothing suggests that Steel is really all that weaker than any of those other armors. Most would still probably be armored in steel with some elven and maybe higher tier equipment among few. I really doubt we're dealing with a mix batch of superfriends rainbow colored armor nobility here.




http://noplan.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dave-silverman.jpg?w=300&h=220




No dude, it isn't a source. It's stupid. I will say it. Giant battle axes that would be completely ineffective and that the game designers added cause they thought "they looked cool" is not a source to suggest that their physics somehow work in other ways and that those axes actually really are effective. Just admit they were put in because they look cool and move on. You don't have to defend every little inconsistency and monkey truth it all.





Right unless it is inconsistent.

The "demon cats of Tenmar" refers to ALL khajiit - from Ohmes to Cathay-raht. And I was referring to racial aptitude - Not ALL fit the stereotype, but from a military perspective, it changes the balance of different types of soldiers in the army. Bretons have more healers than Nords, for example, and the Greybeards are too busy partying with dragons to be bothered with fighting for the Nords. Also, ALL Bretons are resistant to magic, from the lowliest peasant to mightiest lord.

The in-game sources say otherwise - you'd think they wouldn't, but that's just how Elves roll.

So,http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor is nothing? (In addition to the actual numbers provided by the materials of the Armors in Daggerfall, which indicated massive difference in the protective qualities of the armors.

he blend of Morrowind and Oblivion's mechanics in the book indicate it also exists outside the context of gameplay alone, and offers insight on how the militaries view the types of armor (Unlike books such as http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Forge,_Hammer_and_Anvil, which has little of worth outside the game mechanics other than an indication that Malachite's a bugger to work with when making Glass armor).

It could be gathered that Material is more important than Style when it comes to Armor - An iron composite armor doesn't fare much better than an Iron plate armor when someone decides to whack you with a Dwarven or Elven weapon.

What inconsistency? Can you please show me a TES game that doesn't have oversized battleaxes or warhammers? They have always been consistently "oversized", even though the actual design changes from installment to installment.

What's been inconsistent? Hammers have always been oversized, Material has always trumped style, Races have always been physically diverse. The only consistency is you making erroneous judgement on how you think Tamriel's weapons and warfare are handled, in the face of in-game evidence to the contrary.