Horses can run up sheer cliffs in both Oblivion and Skyrim. Does that count for something?

[censored] dude, I rode my horse straight up the side of High Hrothgar.

You guys are trollin now

Which translates to a higher number of spell-users, even if it's only 5-10% higher than the Nordic army - that's still enough to be a significant strategic advantage.

Right, the bosmer aren't good for conventional archery warfare. But even with the smaller bows, they are still more effective (Not in a traditional army, but just in terms of ranged potential) than a much larger force of archers of another race. Heart of Annequine pretty much confirms that they can punch through Nordic-forged heavy armor with their bows and arrows far enough to cause enough injury to force the wearer to remove the armor to remove the arrow. Just because the Collovians didn't know how to use them doesn't mean they're not effective.

It is in Tamriel - even if it's born of creator ignorance, the #1 rule of any piece of fiction is "What the author says, goes". General Warhaft is one of the most respected leaders in the Imperial Legion. I figure he'd know a LOT more about the armor used by his armies under his control in his world than some uppity, non-existant nerd. And he says Chainmail's a Light Armor. Ergo, Chainmail is Light Armor in Tamriel, even if it's Heavy on Earth.


And you're using Really Devoted Fan logic of historical warfare in a setting that your historical context does not apply. The games have sufficient nods to logistics and the concerns of an army to allow us to derive how they function without having to pull everything from our own world. Therefore, they are a more reliable source. (Should I pull out my Intestine-reading comparison again?)

No, it wouldn't work. Unless those horses were raised and ridden by the Horse-Riding Vikings of Rohan - or Gandalf the Stupidly Overpowered. At least it wasn't Eagles... Then everything would have been over immediately.
Hallgard's tale is one of them, in terms of what's physically possible for a person in completely joint-locked heavy armor. The very existence of Senche-Raht and Giants. Cherim's Heart of Annequine. Some of the informational books about how things work. The meaning of "Fus"... the list goes on.

You're seeing ignorance where it isn't there - The guide does mention Destriers, which do trample people. Yes, two cavalry lines, one with lances, and one without, charging each other gives the advantage solidly to the one with Lances. However, we're talking about cavalry units charging PBI, which is different. Once you're already surrounded by infantry, a sword is much better for chopping them up than a lance.

There's a difference between "In the game", "in the lore", and "In Historical context". The games are a limited representation of the world, and the limitations are largely obvious. "In the lore" trumps "Historical context". We can use historical context to fill in gaps in the lore regarding Warfare. However, when the game does delve into Tamriellic Warfare, then that trumps anything that may have happened in Europe or Asia.

While the quirks and limitations of the game engine aren't a reliable source of information, the conversations, books, filler tooltips, and deliberate artwork and designs are.

TES takes Artistic Licence with physics and the nature of warfare.

I was at first, and then I took an arrow to the knee realized that the horse physics are actually a pretty good counterexample to Scow's argument about the distinction between mechanics and actual lore that can be derived from the game. He claims that Bethesda developers could have gone for more realistic-looking weapons (like Mount & Blade) but didn't, therefore the weapons are meant to be oversized, and that


By the same token, however, Bethesda clearly must have meant to make horses in Nirn capable of running up sheer cliffs. Plenty of other games have figured out how to make horses not run up cliffs before both Oblivion and Skyrim, and even after Oblivion was thoroughly mocked for its horse physics, they really didn't change much in Skyrim. The technology to make realistic horses exists (see Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess and Mount & Blade), but Bethesda didn't implement it. Intentional? Are Tamrielic horses the most skilled cliff climbers known to man, mer, and beast? The games seem to suggest it.

Maybe.




Bow range is based on the bow strength. Unless Bosmer have more upper arm strength than Nords or Orcs i really doubt they have more range or strength. And if it is written that way, there is a contradiction. This is why I role my eyes at movies or games where you have the "sixy girl archer assassin." No sorry but she probably won't be able to use a giant ass bow to slay victims miles away.





Yeah, that's dumb. Sorry. Won't happen in my RPs. Again you are picking and choosing when to follow the game and when not to.





Yes sorry for using my "Devoted fan logic of historical warfare" when discussing more realistic warfare in a realistic warfare RP thread.





So no.





You'd almost never use cavalry in melee combat with a sword. A horse doesn't provide a stable platform to fight. The size of the animal actually gives you a weakness which is why in melee often cavalry would dismount.





No sorry. Giant warhammers are stupid and wouldn't work regardless of who says other wise.

Hey Squid, you can't attack on a horse in Oblivion or Skyrim either.

So that means, combat cavalry don't exist!!!

Actually, that's an engine quirk - Horses are capable of moving on Flat Surfaces. Mountainsides are generally Flat Surfaces. Speed and Model Stability determines how steep of a Flat Surface an entity can run up them. Horses are fast and have four legs, meaning they can climb Steep Flat Surfaces. Ergo, Mountain-climbing horses are an engine limitation/quirk/bug. However, the design of weapons and armor are NOT quirks, bugs, or limitations of the game engine, and to imply such is an insult to the late Art Director.

And while other developers have proven competent when programming horses, Bethesda Softworks has not. You're trying to compare two different worlds again.

It's highly possible that Bosmer muscle-structure is optimized toward archery, so that they are stronger than Nords and Orcs when it comes to the muscles required to draw back a bow. There isn't a single simple "Strength" factor - there are dozens of muscles in the arms, and they are used for different functions. It's possible for Bosmer to have greater "Upper arm strength" than Orcs and Nords, without actually being stronger than either of those races.

You're not the only person who hosts large-scale War RPs to which Duval's guide applies.

Except this isn't a "Realistic" (In the sense of "Historically viable") Warfare RP thread - There's very little in the guide that contradicts what's discussed in warfare in the games, and what little conflict there is isn't to a degree that both answers can't be true at once. (Normal iron arrows fired from Breton and Nordic Long Bows cannot pierce Plate. However, skilled Bosmeri archers with powerful Recurve bows and Elven+ Arrows can - albeit not EVERY arrow will punch through the plate.) How the Normans fought the Saxons has little bearing on how the Saxaheel fight the Dunmer, or Redguards fight the Legion.

Huh? How can prominent of deviance from our physical laws mean there is no evidence of deviance from our physical laws?

Actually, if the entity in charge of determining what works and what doesn't work says something works, then it works. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

I would agree with this if the horses weren't still running up cliffs in Skyrim. But after switching engines, having heard feedback about the silly cliff-horses of Oblivion, and working on Skyrim for years, the same error is still there. There must have been some conscious intent on someone's part to leave that in (for humor at the very least), because the technology to prevent that predated Oblivion.

That, or they didn't know how to fix the error when they ported everything over to the new engine that's so heavily based on the old one. And Todd did say they kept amusing bugs and glitches in the game. However, those ARE pretty obvious (Giants are not really Orbital Launch Pads, Buckets and Pots cannot completely eliminate one's sensory awareness, chickens and horses are not Guard Informants, and Horses cannot run straight up mountains, and the world does not become more of a slideshow the more someone's wandered through it). However, the appearance of weapons and Armor (Aside from Invisible Faces when wearing Dragon Masks and Hooded Robes, or Clipping from armor in past games) are NOT limitations of gameplay. They could have gone with historical designs had they wanted to - They deliberately decided the more fantastic weapon designs are more along the lines of what the people of Tamriel use for killing others.

Have you ever worked out before? I'm not ten tons of muscle myself and honestly I don't find that attractive or really healthy but what you just said is a bunch of non sense.





The realistic aspects, probably yeah.




A recurve bow isn't automatically stronger than a self bow. Recurve bows aren't any easier to draw. The poundage is still the same. The difference is that a recurve bow can be used on a horse much much easier. On the downside they are much more flimsy so in regions of extreme humidity they would fall apart. So areas like Valenwood, assuming they're rainy much of the time, probably wouldn't see a lot of recruve bows. Iron arrows pierce armor based on the poundage of the bow, not the person drawing it. If a nord can draw a 180 pound bow and the bosmer can only draw a 140 pound bow, guess which one has more strength? Again based on the geography of the homeland of the Bosmer, along with their biology, it all suggests that Bosmer use smaller self bows for shorter range, but highly accurate shots from self bows.





"Oh they use magic, automatically this must mean stupidly sized cartoon mallets are actually viable weapons now." This is your logic.




And I can say its crap and give very reasons why. Don't worry the gamesas game makers sleep just fine at night, and so do I. If one asks me I will tell them, their design choice appeals to the WoW-esque fantasy style fans. If they want a more realistic and gritty look to the series, here is what you can do. Until then no amount of monkey truth fan boying will convince me other wise. Anyway following your logic consistently we have people that can carry 6 sets of armor on them and horses that walk up cliffs. If we use your logic inconsistently it really loses any merit. Either case it's a pretty lost argument on your behalf.

No, but I study human anatomy (As an artist). My younger brother's a swimmer, my older brother's a prison guard, and my mother throws horses around. We all live on a farm. I can drive a fencepost about three feet into the ground (Probably further, but have never had the need), and throw an 80-lb haybail a good twenty feet. However, I hit like a five-year-old girl with a feather duster. I figure the variations in "Strength" that I can observe from my family indicates you're pretty far off the mark on your assumptions of the strength. If melee combat and Archery required similar "types" of strength, then why weren't archers equipped with large weapons that took advantage of their obviously-superior strength?

I've seen at least a half-dozen large-scale RPs take off that could have benefitted from this guide, without having anything to do with the IBT.


There's no evidence a Bosmer cannot pull a heavier bow than a Nord - It takes a different kind of arm strength to draw back a bow than swing an axe, hammer, or sword. Furthermore, a bow made of Moonstone, Glass, or a laminated metal (As outlined in "Manual of Arms") would be more durable and have a stronger draw while also being more compact.

Senche-Raht and Giants do not use "Magic". Nor did most of my examples.

Using my logic - In the games, have you seen any NPC carry "Six sets of armor on them", or ride a horse straight up a cliff? I've already stated that the Player Character's abilities are a bad source because the game engine goes out of its way to make the world accommodate someone who can only be clumsily controlled by an external source consisting of (Optimally) four buttons, four triggers, and two joysticks through a camera with a FoV of no greater than 90^o.

Also, WoW does try to keep to believable conventions for warfare, except where the Player characters are involved - a lot of quests deal with supplies and logistics, medical issues, morale, strategy, and other, similar situations. You just like to ignorantly dismiss the effects the fantastic elements have on the way a setting wages war.

Go make a RP that was more successful than the IBT, come back, and show us.

Peace.

You mean the Timeline that hasn't successfully finished an RP ever?

Please don't make arguments like this. It really adds nothing to the discussion and is pretty much irrelevant.

I think what it boils down to is that you have to strike a balance between history and Tamriel as presented in the games. You need to draw a line somewhere, and we all disagree where. IB leaves out oversized weapons, while Scow doesn't like cliff-running horses and the annoyingly close protection values of Elven Light Armor and Imperial Light Armor. My point so far has been that Scow's line is a little more arbitrary than he likes to admit.

You mean like big wooden mallets the English Longbowmen used to smash French Knights like boiled crabs?




Yeah but i'm not sure any have followed a "realism" aspect so closely. Not saying it makes it automatically better but that's generally our flavor of things.




No see you are working out of negatives. This is like me saying "there's no evidence to suggest that i'm not magic." Doesn't work that way and you are shifting the burden of proof. Bosmer (as elves in general) are weaker physically than humans. The closest that come to "human strength" are probably Dunmer (ignoring Orcs of course.) Strength is strength and although the technique and mechanics used are different, you still need a great amount of strength to draw a bow. And a "more compact bow" doesn't make it any easier to draw. 180 pounds on a recurve bow is 180 pounds on a self bow.





I'm not sure you are reading what I am writing. Your argument for stupidly sized war hammers being viable is that someone did magic somewhere there for their laws of physics are different.




So you use the game when it suits you and not when it doesn't. So your argument has no merit.





http://static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Are+_ab158b4dd29195e1dcab9ba022ea332b.jpg

Seriously? You're going to go with this?

A comment on the sword vs pike charge in the Lord of the Ring movie : If I remember right Gandlaf did a bit of show before riding out from the sun downhill and the orc's ranks were in disarray even before the charge hit homet. Which makes the battle about the same as after a lance charge, whe, the lances get discarded and the sword/maces/axes get pulled out for close mayhem. Had the orcs kept their formation steady, it would have ended up quit differently.

Agaisnt a steady pike wall, there's not many solutions. Ranged weapons or artillery of one sort or another works best, otherwise you need someone or something crazy or dumb enough to throw itself at the pikes , neutralizing them by getting skewered on as many as possible. A slightly safer alternative was the two-handed swords used to knock aside and hopefully break the pikes, making a hole for more nimble troups to go at the pikemen. Otherwise, you need a matching pike wall.

Hmm... point taken.

...How big were these mallets?

I'm saying they could have benefitted from the Duval's guide itself, which, in case you didn't notice, is actually neutral on the concept of Fantastic vs. Historical - Even the most fanatic "Death or Glory"-types still want to stay alive (Even when they say they don't), People are sensitive to the weight their carrying, and would rather not carry any more than they have to. Armor still does its job, and supply lines must be preserved.

The game already establishes Bosmer as the deadliest archers, capable of at least occassionally penetrating Heavy Plate Armor. A compact bow isn't easier to draw (And likely harder, to make up for the loss of the extra length), but it's more maneuverable and wieldy.

The nature of the various Qualities of bow may indicate that different designs can by pass annoying concepts like Conservation of Energy. Elven, Glass, Orcish, Ebony, Dwarven, and Daedric bows are all at least somewhat supernatural(Orichalcum, Moonstone, and Ebony are all supernatural materials, and NOBODY knows what's up with Dwarven), meaning it's possible that they can "multiply" the energy in before bowstring release.

What is sustaining the functionality of Senche-Raht (Who'd realistically overheat and die in a desert or even tropical forest) and Giants, both of which violate the Square-cube law?
The game presented by the world is usable. The gameplay mechanics and bugs/quirks are not. You ignore the very Source Material used by the world that you desire to play in, meaning YOUR argument has no merit.

Your image link doesn't work, so I'm not sure if it's evidence or just a stupid memefase. Do you have any familiarity with the Warcraft franchise beyond "It's that popular RPG played by simple-minded sheeple"?

Varied I suppose. Point is archers aren't the little scrawny types people like to imagine.




Not sure what your point is.





Anyone with enough strength can do that. And a recurve bow probably wouldn't be used by Bosmer either because Valenwood is very humid and wet. The biggest users of that bow would probably be Dunmer and Redguards.





Not really. The game makers just wanted something cool and a variation of items. The concept of a "steel bow" is silly. But it's fine whatever.





What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?




The game presented toilets as non existent too, horses running up sheer cliffs and dialogue limited to a few phrases.





It's dumb. I don't really play MMOs but I delved a little bit into EvE Online and the saying there goes "When someone from EvE leaves to play WoW the intelligence of both communities goes up." I thought it was kinda funny.

Ergo, Bosmer are likely stronger than they look.

I'm saying that this guide makes no commentary on the practicality of Oversized Hammers (Or any weapon designs, for that matter), and is useful for having fun and balanced warfare in ANY RP, whether it's IBT, War for Tamriel, or Stormcloaks vs. Empire.


Is it about the pull of the bow, or the strength of the archer, then? Either way, you're contradicting yourself because we're talking about Bosmer archers equipped with Bosmeri bows. Maybe recurve is the wrong word. But they'd still use short, high-pull bows.

Maybe... but whatever the difference in weapons is, it gets its job done.

It means Physics are determined by an Art Major, not someone who knows physical science.

No toilets? What are you talking about? Every house and functional mine has a bucket for a reason. I've never seen anyone ride a horse up a sheer cliff (PC excluded), nor hear how any factions or armies take advantage of horses' cliff-climbing abilities for strategic gain. Dialogue is a sampling of what can be heard in the world, as opposed to a comprehensive compendium of every conversation that's taken place in Cyrodiil and Skyrim during their crisis respectively.

That's just ignorant isolationism, elitism, and Myopia. Aesop has a number of fables on the subject.

Or specialize in using lighter poundage bows which makes sense considering their habitat.




Yeah but giant warhammers wouldn't work...unless you're 7 feet tall and 250 pounds of muscle.





It's about BOTH the pull of the bow and the strength of the archer. And you can't get "short, high pull bows" unless they are composite recurve bows which again wouldn't work in a humid area.





Sure I guess if I wrote/designed a game where you heal people by stabbing them in the throat with a knife, it would be so because i'm the writer...but it's still silly. And for my RPs anyway I try to limit the silliness. Don't get me wrong I have my own characters that wield stupidly big weapons but they're super natural. Surprisingly a lot of the stuff in Skyrim looks a lot more realistic and in line with what I am talking about than Oblivion anyway.




Point is we both look at things in game and accept certain things and disregard others as unreasonable. Since I study medieval history I don't find massive warhammers as plausible. Since you play WoW you do.

And that is that...


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And if the bosmer use lighter-poundage bows, then they wouldn't be able to puncture Plate Armor (It's noted that arrows shot by Bosmer Archers go completely through a Khajiit in Mediumweight armor, unless the shape of the armor outright deflects the arrow.)

And it's possible to get short, high-pull bows by using less flexible, equally elastic materials - such as a wooden bow with a flexible metal core - kind of like how an Arbalest is a crossbow with a steel "Bow" - just upsize that to full Bow size and you get a strong-pull, compact-height bow... that likely requires supernatural strength to pull.


Many Nords match that description. And Redguards know techniques for wielding such weapons. A massive mallet still hurts when you smack someone with it.

Everybody in Tamriel is supernatural, being the offspring of Gods and all that.

It probably doesn't go all the way through and this is rubbish. This is the great thing about TES and what I really liked about it. Sources contradict each other. Everyone's got their view on it. Everything from ALMSIVI, to Talos, to the Underking and so on and so forth. There's a Roman source stating that the arrows of the Parthians would fly through the Scutum shields and nail the feet of Roman soldiers to the earth. Is this true? Not unless the Parthians had rail weapon technology. That's what is nice about studying how to study history and sources. It allows you to discern. In my RP there wouldn't be any Bosmer that can shoot clear through medium armor.




You wouldn't have a wooden bow with a metal core. You'd still need to use glue to make such a weapon (that wouldn't work) and the humidity would still cause it to fall apart.




No there aren't and there is no technique that allows you to use a giant warhammer.





Do an eyeroll.

Considering that we're dealing with Bosmer here, we wouldn't have a wooden bow at all. They don't believe in killing plants, remember?

Heart of Annequine has a first-hand account of the armor-penetrating qualities of Bosmeri arrows - It's one thing to mistake an arrow flying under/around a shield or through a weakened/broken section as breaking through a scutum. It's another to say "Bosmer Arrows cannot pierce Armor" when the cats are being forced to remove their armor to pull the arrows out of wounds because they're stuck halfway into the armor.

What makes you think that the Bosmer wouldn't use a glue that's resistant to the humidity, or just grow the wood around a metal core using their wood-shaping magic?

Just as there are no techniques that let you blow up an entire continent... oh wait.