Great game, horrible magic system : V - Skyrim

» Fri May 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Use wards. Use Alteration and Conjuration spells. Those will make your life much easier. And I think magic has been much improved from Oblivion so that it is possible to make a pure mage character- Destruction spells have more power for less magicka. Magical staffs also pack quite a punch, and you can now dual-wield them.

» Fri May 11, 2012 2:09 pm

I play a Mage on expert difficulty (I wear a robe and do not have a single weapon in my inventory) and I will teach you easymode:

* Get a follower/companion.
* Get a summon atronach (or a similar spell) spell.

Now I have 2 meatshields and the game is easy even at expert difficulty. Maybe I will bump it up to master once I hit the mid-20s level.

EDIT: You are incorrect; you can hotkey in this game (PC version).

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:14 am

I will agree a little bit here. Magic is back to the run and gun game that it has always been, except this time it costs more and there is less margin for error. I'm playing on master difficulty as a pure mage and every fight begins well enough, but then I run out of magicka very quickly (yes, even with the reduction perks) and it becomes the same potion guzzling, circle strafing, staff shooting waltz.

On top of that, melee weapons and bows are just plain more powerful than destruction and do not require stamina to actually use for basic attacks. The other schools are useful, and you can defend them all you want, but the majority of situations in the game need to be solved with direct violence. Especially the hard ones: dragons, boss fights, story centric battles, etc.

Now if we had some wall, hindrance, teleportation, misdirection, or other types of spells to vary combat the loss of spell making would be justified. Shouts are great, but they just can't be used often enough beyond getting you out of a pinch or opening a battle with.

However, mage fights are the coolest thing to cool this side of cool-ville since the Fonz rolled into town. If ONLY for the ward spell.

» Fri May 11, 2012 6:15 pm

I've never conjured anything and I play on the hardest difficulty and am level 18 at the moment and have gotten through some incredibly difficult encounters. I do have a follower though. It's another mage...

I have no idea how you made it that far. Perhaps I just didn't properly plan out my perks in advance. But I'm level 10 right now, trying to take on that first dragon on expert difficulty, and it's just not. Going. To. Happen. I've leveled up health 3 times and the rest magicka. I have four schools of magic. If I dare wear actual mage robes and such, he will kill me in one scorch, even while I'm dual-healing. If I wear all light armor instead, I run out of mana fast as hell and then have to spend five minutes playing dodge the dragon while it regens.

My last character? Same difficulty, same level, I ran up and started hacking at the dragon every time he landed. Using sword/shield, he was dead in like two minutes. I used one health potion. The difference in power is just ridiculous. Neither Morrowind nor Oblivion was balanced near this badly.

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:33 pm

You is a Pure Mage... A Glass Cannon.
I am a Pure Mage too... Another Glass Cannon.

The only think that could get better in the new system are new spells, otherwise I like it a lot. It truly make me think about tactics and what spells I need to use.

Flame against Monsters.
Frost against Fast Melee.
Lighting against Magic Users.
All Of Them against Bosses.

And even them I need to use Restoration and Illusion to not get my ass kicked. Just plan ahead a little and your life as a mage will get easier. Mages, after all, are thinkers.
I'm a Pure Mage and kick some Dragon's Asses. (But not Giant's Asses unfortunately)

Also: Having a Companion (Even a fellow Mage) can be VERY useful, but not truly necessary. Shouts also help in some situations.

» Fri May 11, 2012 1:04 pm

Let me preface with the fact that thus far I love the game overall, am a PC elitist, I've only had 1 crash in a full day of playing 2 characters, dislike greatly some of the interface changes (and no hotkeys for the pc, at least that I can find, so I hate the "Favorites" system). Some of the story lines and huge lore changes I disagree with/vehemently don't like, some I love, but that's for another thread.

A pure mage is not a viable character in Skyrim.

The magic system in Skyrim is abysmal. Unlike melee, where even with no stamina and no ability to do power moves, you can still swing your weapon. With no magicka, you can't do anything as a mage except run.
The spell costs are not even high, they are stupendously stupidly high.
Beyond the fact that cloth has no armor value and enchanting stinks as bad as it did in Oblivion (yeah, the ability to put one buff on a piece of armor..yay), which makes pure mages take a horrible beating compared to a character even in light armor. A mage will be out of magicka right after the fight starts, and carrying around 200 magicka potions is not a viable means of trying to go on as a mage character.

Finally, removing spellcrafting from the game just adds insult to injury to those of us who wanted to play a mage, Bethesda. You could have made a vastly improved spellcrafting system (even though the one in Oblivion was pretty good as it was, especially after adding the Supreme Magicka mod) but instead, you pretty much guaranteed no one will be able to play a mage in Skyrim, and if they even decided to suffer through some how (god mode for the win I guess) why bother when, without spellcrafting, the magic system is boring by default.

Oh yeah, on top of all that, thanks for putting in all the little stories about npc mages researching this spell or creating that spell. Seems the npcs can do it, but the players can't.

Can't wait til mods start rolling out to change all this mage abuse. However, it would be a helluva lot better Bethesda, if you put out a patch to add spellcrafting and reduce the grossly high magicka costs of simple spells, let alone the higher end spells. Evidently some "savant" at Bethesda thought a mage could actually kill 5 bad guys when only able to cast enough spells that can actually kill ONE bad guy. Better yet, I want someone at Bethesda to make a mage, use only the spells in the game, and just try to kill a giant and his pet mammoth on your own. Let me know how that works out for ya...

By the way, to reiterate, I'm talking about "pure" mages here, not battlemages.

To end, no I'm not nerd raging, no I'm not frothing at the mouth (any more than normal) no I'm not even shrieking a little bit. This was my discovery of creating a mage and trying to play him, and subsequently deleting his worthless carcass.

I hate to take a whiz in your Cheerios dude, but I rolled a pure mage, I do mean pure, not a raw bit of physical or bow attacks. One of the things you failed to note is that the equipment and perks the mages get is designed to augment their stats such as magicka regen, which I have a considerable amount. Also, tying into that, if you run out of magicka, you still have the shouts you can use to buy time for your regen to drip out enough for a decent spell. Some perks and gear cut the cost of spells by as much as half.

The only point I will agree with is that I too wanted the spellcrafting system to make a comeback and was disappointed.

» Fri May 11, 2012 5:56 am

Let me preface with the fact that thus far I love the game overall, am a PC elitist, I've only had 1 crash in a full day of playing 2 characters, dislike greatly some of the interface changes (and no hotkeys for the pc, at least that I can find, so I hate the "Favorites" system). Some of the story lines and huge lore changes I disagree with/vehemently don't like, some I love, but that's for another thread.

A pure mage is not a viable character in Skyrim.

The magic system in Skyrim is abysmal. Unlike melee, where even with no stamina and no ability to do power moves, you can still swing your weapon. With no magicka, you can't do anything as a mage except run.
The spell costs are not even high, they are stupendously stupidly high.
Beyond the fact that cloth has no armor value and enchanting stinks as bad as it did in Oblivion (yeah, the ability to put one buff on a piece of armor..yay), which makes pure mages take a horrible beating compared to a character even in light armor. A mage will be out of magicka right after the fight starts, and carrying around 200 magicka potions is not a viable means of trying to go on as a mage character.

Finally, removing spellcrafting from the game just adds insult to injury to those of us who wanted to play a mage, Bethesda. You could have made a vastly improved spellcrafting system (even though the one in Oblivion was pretty good as it was, especially after adding the Supreme Magicka mod) but instead, you pretty much guaranteed no one will be able to play a mage in Skyrim, and if they even decided to suffer through some how (god mode for the win I guess) why bother when, without spellcrafting, the magic system is boring by default.

Oh yeah, on top of all that, thanks for putting in all the little stories about npc mages researching this spell or creating that spell. Seems the npcs can do it, but the players can't.

Can't wait til mods start rolling out to change all this mage abuse. However, it would be a helluva lot better Bethesda, if you put out a patch to add spellcrafting and reduce the grossly high magicka costs of simple spells, let alone the higher end spells. Evidently some "savant" at Bethesda thought a mage could actually kill 5 bad guys when only able to cast enough spells that can actually kill ONE bad guy. Better yet, I want someone at Bethesda to make a mage, use only the spells in the game, and just try to kill a giant and his pet mammoth on your own. Let me know how that works out for ya...

By the way, to reiterate, I'm talking about "pure" mages here, not battlemages.

To end, no I'm not nerd raging, no I'm not frothing at the mouth (any more than normal) no I'm not even shrieking a little bit. This was my discovery of creating a mage and trying to play him, and subsequently deleting his worthless carcass.

I agree but for different reasons.

» Fri May 11, 2012 12:38 pm

I find that the thinking in Skyrim is a bit more tolkenish rather than D&Dish. The idea that your a "mage" and he is a "bard" and that guy over their is a "Warrior" is all very sort of class / role based thinking that really doesn't have a place in Skyrim. In the same way Ghandalf would whoop your ass with a staff or Anwen would slice you up with a sword, mages aren't really just mages. Skyrim character mechanic seems to be geared towards players sort of building a character with more flexibility than "Im a mage, I never swing anything.. period". If your a mage, great... that doesn't mean you have to exclude the use of a dagger with a few skills behind it to give it some umphf, or a mace to bonk a guy to buy you some time.

I think its fine that players want to challenge themselves and try to play the game without magic, or without learning to use a bow or something, but expect that to be a greater challenge than if you simply embrace the game mechanic as a whole and diversivy as the game is sort of designed for you to do.

In my original post, I did declare I'm talking about a pure mage, someone who uses magic only and wears all cloth and nothing else. I have a battlemage that can dropkick most enemies (battlemages usually wear heavy armor, usually a 1h weapon and a shield, in addition to their magic). I'm also talking about the system itself being horribly boring and confining without a spellcrafting system when compared to Oblivion with a spellcrafting system. The insulting part is there are so many stories with the npcs about them researching and creating their own spells, yet we do not get to do that ourselves anymore.

I find the L2P responses to my post, also stupidly insulting. I've played the hell out of mages in practically countless games prior to this, and I'm well aware that a mage has to use all of his tools to be effective, and to do otherwise is equivalent to fighting with your hands tied behind your back and trying to break your opponents knuckles with your face.

Overall, in response to the many responses in this thread, I think some of you are bald face liars, and some of you have figured out how to make it work well for you, which with my mage I definitely did not. One other caveat, I did *not* do anything with conjuration at all, as my character's "story" is that he was Nord, having lived in Cyrodiil for a long time and now returning home, knows that Nords by and large still hate magic and still carried his own prejudices against summoning for that reason, and so would not insult his countrymen by summoning.

» Fri May 11, 2012 10:09 am

ITT: Wizards thinking Destruction is the only school of magic

You're a Pure Mage. Use everything you have.

» Fri May 11, 2012 2:02 pm

Op is apparently doing it wrong, because mages are absurdly op. Perks: use them.

» Fri May 11, 2012 3:35 pm

I disagree. It sounds to me like you're clearly not utilizing the various schools of magic. You can't just throw flames at everything and expect to live. Need armor? Try alteration. Enemies coming too close and you need time or are running out of magicka? Raise a fallen enemy or conjure a bound weapon with the last of your magicka. Etc.

» Fri May 11, 2012 8:13 am

OP, you have to have patience when it comes to magic. As the others said even as a pure battlemage you can always figure out different types of ways to kill people. You just have to experiment with them...

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:24 am

Someone link the Equilibrium spell. Endless mana. Problem solved.

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:17 pm

I have no idea how you made it that far. Perhaps I just didn't properly plan out my perks in advance. But I'm level 10 right now, trying to take on that first dragon on expert difficulty, and it's just not. Going. To. Happen. I've leveled up health 3 times and the rest magicka. I have four schools of magic. If I dare wear actual mage robes and such, he will kill me in one scorch, even while I'm dual-healing. If I wear all light armor instead, I run out of mana fast as hell and then have to spend five minutes playing dodge the dragon while it regens.

My last character? Same difficulty, same level, I ran up and started hacking at the dragon every time he landed. Using sword/shield, he was dead in like two minutes. I used one health potion. The difference in power is just ridiculous. Neither Morrowind nor Oblivion was balanced near this badly.

Don't let him get close enough to scorch you at all, and when you do slip up and let him get close to you, use a mage ward to preemptively block damage as you move away and pop it back up every time it breaks, possibly while holding the restoration heal. Patience and range is key on dragons since they don't heal (at least none that I've encountered).

This is assuming you have a ranged mage spell that goes farther than the stream spells. If you don't, then you haven't prepared properly for the fight.

» Fri May 11, 2012 6:03 am

Early on you will need to be intelligent with conservation or mana.

If you find a staff it is gold.

Look at every spell you have available. The only set of skills made to be able to boringly do the same thing again and again mindlessly are warriors. Keep something summoned around you to keep the heat off of you. Also alteration is useful because it gives you extra time to regen mana if they begin attacking you because you have defenses. Early on rage, and pacify really help thin out small groups so you don't have 5 guys in your face saying hello at once. Other then healing restoration seems to be full of condition things like undead spells so I'd say it'll be the least useful school.

If you can kill something with the spell normally do not use the two handed version.

Wear robes the magic regen and magic from the hood is useful. And you will find some in the tutorial dungeon.

Try to stick to spells within the range where you have the perk that halves it's cost. Early on this will only be apprentice level spells and later adept so on and every school has these perks so if you don't use them and complain about the spell being expensive you have no excuse for your stupid. This is the difference between having mana and not having mana.

As you adventure you will have more and more mana and better and better magic regen gear. Eventually you have a pretty persistant ally, high armor, powerful destructive power with two handed spells, and other sticks like the ability to disappear whenever you want.

Alright?

» Fri May 11, 2012 12:54 pm

Wait so, you're mad at Bethesda because you're a baddie? Go QQ somewhere else and quit being bad.

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:39 pm

pure mage is the best and most viable. I had to turn the difficulty up because I kept owning

» Fri May 11, 2012 2:59 pm

I have no idea what the topic-starter is talking about.
I chose a high elf and focussed on destruction/restoration and play the game on standard difficulty. Most of the enemies are dead in 1 or 2 hits and if they refuse to die, you usually can just run around an obstacle and wait for your magic to recharge, wich goes quite fast.
Actually, i never found it necessary to use a magic potion at all because of that fast recharge.
Maybe the OP shouldnt have put all his levels in stamina?

» Fri May 11, 2012 8:06 am

I disagree with the OP. I'm playing on Adept, with a pure mage, wearing the same Necro Robes she had at level 1. She is now level 14, has never fired the first Destruction Spell and uses armor and weapons, as a source of income. She has yet to fall in battle. When that happens, I will start over...Dead Is Dead.

I am very happy with the game.

» Fri May 11, 2012 12:59 pm

Either my game is bugged and my perks arnt working, or Destruction is.... :cryvaultboy:

My companion kills a bear in 3 hits with her crappy sword, yet i barely leave a mark on it~ Playing on Master, have the overcharge, augmented flame and shock perks~ *25% dmg*

I use up all my mana before my target even gets to 50%, companion raqes monsters face~

Am i missing something? :spotted owl:

To everyone saying there is no problem, play on Master difficulty, physical attacks still do decent dmg, yet magic doesn't.

» Fri May 11, 2012 5:02 am

Either my game is bugged and my perks arnt working, or Destruction is.... :cryvaultboy:

My companion kills a bear in 3 hits with her crappy sword, yet i barely leave a mark on it~ Playing on Master, have the overcharge, augmented flame and shock perks~ *25% dmg*

I use up all my mana before my target even gets to 50%, companion raqes monsters face~

Am i missing something? :spotted owl:

To everyone saying there is no problem, play on Master difficulty, physical attacks still do decent dmg, yet magic doesn't.

This ^^ is what I'm talking about.

» Fri May 11, 2012 5:47 am

I really liked the new magic system, its so much more effective in combat.

» Fri May 11, 2012 6:03 am

To everyone saying there is no problem, play on Master difficulty, physical attacks still do decent dmg, yet magic doesn't.

So, let me get this straight.

Playing on the hardest difficulty level is actually hard? I hate when that happens.

It's a shame they don't give you a mechanic to change the difficulty level to make the game more fun for those having a hard time.

» Fri May 11, 2012 6:34 pm

my only gripe is that you can't use a spell as a power, making it impossible for an archer to cast a spell without re-quiping.

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:11 pm

It's terrible. You shouldn't be forced to take perks in conjuration as a mage in order to be viable.

It would be like making every other character take Two-Handed. Bethesda [censored] up hardcoe.

Everyone here saying they have "powerful" mages are likely playing on the lowest difficulty and haven't even reached level 15 yet. Mages both do less damage and can take less damage before dying than thieves or warriors. There's supposed to be a trade-off here. Squishy-as-hell mages are supposed to do high DPS. If they're balanced right, they shouldn't NEED a companion to soak damage. Even MMOs understand this...Mage vs Warlock/Summoner, two different things. Both should be viable. In Skyrim, only one of them is.

He's got a point. In every balanced game mages should do the highest damage while warriors can tank the most and assassins do inbetween damage. Spell dps is less than warriors and mages run out of mana quickly and die much quicker with robes too. Pretty much every game understands the basics of this three way balance. I'm surprised skyrim fails to grasp this basic concept.