That bit you said about enchanting is wrong. If you're a mage, you are using enchanted gear. You have to, unless by massive damage you mean you just spent your whole mana bar casting one dual cast thunderbolt. Good job there. Melee doesn't need enchants OR smithing to be viable, destruction magic does. The best thing a destruction mage can do to help his damage is to pick up conjuration and stop casting destruction spells. Get it through your thick skull already, I'm tired of sounding like a broken record.

So stacking mana enchants is cheesy but stacking meele/ranged dmg enchants or dmg/magic resistance enchants is not O.o
They are there to use its not like we moded them in, they`re were designed by the devs in that way.
Guess playing as a mage and getting the archmage robes as a reward must feel cheesy to you. (+15 mana reduction too ALL spell trees)

Rules Governing Bonuses
The basic rule to remember when combining two or more bonuses is this: two or more bonuses of different type stack, and two or more bonuses of the same type overlap. In general, a bonus's name indicates its type. A bonus with no name has no type and it stacks with any other bonus, but not with itself.

Stacking and Overlapping
When two or more bonuses overlap, they're not cumulative and you use only the highest bonus. You don't add the effects, but they don't go away either. If one of whatever gives you an overlapping bonus goes away, the other might still be around to take up the slack. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule, and we'll look at those later, but for now let's just try to answer our original question.

The diference of the above unlimited stamina/magicka is that unlimited stamina WILL increase melee ranged output but unlimited magicka (which can be achived now) does NOT increase destruction magic output.
All come to defend the melee output as if someone said that it needs re balancing.Most mages want only for destruction magic feel more DESTRUCTIVE on higher difficulties that the default and on higher levels that level 30.
Destruction skill needs a fix and that is a fact.People unable to see it haven't use destruction seriously other than running around on cities and killing npcs there thinking they rock.

If ppl would not abuse the alchemy/enchant/smithing loop a normal char using vendor made smithing pots and using smithing gear enchanted by vendor made enchanting pots would be able to make weapons a bit more hard hitting that the expert destruction spells. So it was all balanced.

Robes are always enchanted so its not realy my choice I`m only using the loot thats in game, I`m not enchanting them myself. The same goes for a meele using leveled/enchanted random loot.

Yes meele dosnt need enchants or smithing to be viable but without it your dmg would be only 30-50% at best of what it is now so you would need to take more time to kill anything.
For a mage it dosnt mater because we dont have it (a way of upping damage) in the first place so our dmg is better than yours as we kill faster but we need to regen magica after a bigger exchange of spells.

Without exploiting enchanting, you can cast 4 Incinerate at level 30 with your 400 magicka assuming you got the expert perk and the arch mage robes. The melee guy can for sure hit a lot more often than that.

For info, 4 casts of Incinerate is barely enough to kill a Draugr Deathlord and at one point I got 3 in the same room + another one slightly weaker.

Even if melee damage got cut in half, you would still have the survivability from wearing armor.

Now, read this part: I'm not saying that MAGES are weak, I'm saying destruction is weak.

Keep reading that part till you understand what it means. And then understand that you could spend the magic casting six thunderbolts to kill that enemy, or use less magic than that to summon the dremora twins to wreck havoc on an entire dungeon. You wouldn't have to lift a finger after they start running wild.

Why cast an expensive spell, when lest costly spells are more effective and more efficient?

Why are you using a master spell that is lower dmg but higher mana cost than a expert spell and cant be dual cast for more dmg overall ?
Why arent you taking into account the head/amulet/ring slots for less mana cost gear that can be found in game ?
Why does lvl 30 mage have only 400 mana ( 29 levels is 290 mana + 100 mana base + 50 from archmage robe = 430 at lowest without other mana gear/perks and mana regen ) ?



Now, read this part: Was I writing about MAGES here or DESTRUCTION ?!? Read my post carefully and your notice I only talk about destro magic I never used summons or illusion to deal dmg. Im saying all the time destruction tree spells are not weak and enought to deal dmg.

Keep reading that part till you understand what it means. And then understand that you could kill your enemies yourself or use your companion to clear and wreck havoc on an entire dungeon three times quicker than doing it yourself. You wouldn't have to lift a finger after your companion starts running wild.

Why are you using a master spell that is lower dmg but higher mana cost than a expert spell and cant be dual cast for more dmg overall ?
Why arent you taking into account the head/amulet/ring slots for less mana cost gear that can be found in game ?
Why does lvl 30 mage have only 400 mana ( 29 levels is 290 mana + 100 mana base + 50 from archmage robe = 430 at lowest without other mana gear/perks and mana regen ) ?

He just said that in the absence of enchanting, this is how it is for a melee user, and this is how it is for a magic user. He said nothing about using enchanted gear, you did. Which furthers the point that mages need enchanting to do sub par damage. I understand that you never used summons or illusion, you used enchanting to give yourself 0 magicka costs to spam dual cast spells to stun lock your enemies. Had you played any other way, your mage would be one of the dead bodies in some random crypt.

Here, just think about this offer, Free destruction spells or free conjuration spells. Which would you chose?

Try to play a mage build and then come back, you will notice master spells dont stagger and cant be dualcast.
Expert spells like incinerate deal more dmg than firebolt so they`re are better because they will deal more dmg in the same time (DPS)
So what if firebolt is doing a small amount of dmg more than incinerate, it all depends on the playstyle of the player. Im gonna use incinerate but someone else gonna use firebolt, that dosnt matter the same way as it doesnt matter to you if someone uses dagger/mace/sword/axe.

Ok so we wont use the enchants what did it change ? My basic mage does 200 dmg a spell and can throw a bit of thunderbolts for my mana reserve while your basic meele does 50 dmg a swing.
So your gonna have to swing 4 times to get to the same level of my one dual spell ? Is that effective ? Its you who cant deal sub par dmg without second hand trees.

Did I say anywhere that I use 0 mana cost spells ? Im fine with the perk and arch-mage robe and that gives me already 60% less mana cost. My mana pool is big, my regen is big why would playing a mage make me die a lot more than your meele.

Last time I checked, stamina use didn't increase by going from a dwarven axe to an ebony axe. The ebony axe is a more efficient use of stamina than the dwarven one. Inversely, incinerate is a less efficient use of magicka than firebolt, and there's just no reason for this. Why are your destruction spells getting less and less efficient as you rank up, even counting the magic cost reduction perks AND reduction of cost from skilling up.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1283497-destruction-versus-one-handed-statistics/page__hl__one+hand+vs+destruction

Melee does more dps, bows probably do as well. You wouldn't even need that link if you've tried both at medium/high level - it's quite obvious. Conjuration most likely as well, if we can record double Dremora Lord dps. All of these damage types can use restoration/illusion/conjuration/alteration. There is no classes. Destro is the weakest damage type when every Skill (including destro) uses enchanting, and even weaker when every Skill excludes enchanting.

Ok so we wont use the enchants what did it change ? My basic mage does 200 dmg a spell and can throw a bit of thunderbolts for my mana reserve while your basic meele does 50 dmg a swing.
So your gonna have to swing 4 times to get to the same level of my one dual spell ? Is that effective ? Its you who cant deal sub par dmg without second hand trees.

Did I say anywhere that I use 0 mana cost spells ? Im fine with the perk and arch-mage robe and that gives me already 60% less mana cost. My mana pool is big, my regen is big why would playing a mage make me die a lot more than your meele.

Stamina use didn't increase by going from a dwarven axe to an ebony axe? MAYBE because meele dosnt need stamina in the first place to deal dmg, stamina is used for power attacks.
I can agree the mana cost for higher level spells isnt balanced well but your forgetting that your using a higher dmg spell from a range dealing dmg without any danger to your health and that you can use any spells you want, its not that firebolt gets deleted once you get incinerate.

Fireball 0001c789 A fiery explosion for 40 points of damage in a 15 foot radius. Targets on fire take extra damage. 114 Wuunferth the Unliving, Faralda Adept Missile, AOE on impact
Incinerate 0010f7ed A blast of fire that does 60 points of damage. Targets on fire take extra damage. 255 Faralda, Enthir Expert Missile

(40x2,2x1,5) 126 dmg for (114x0,4x2,8) 127 mana = 0,99 dmg/mana
(60x2,2x1,5) 198 dmg for (255x0,4x2,8) 285 mana = 0,7 dmg/mana

So firebolt is more efficient mana wise but with incinerate you can deal 62 more dmg a hit. In the end it depends on the player what he thinks is more beneficial to him.

Without enchanting, you cannot get more than 65% less spell cost (not counting the perks). Your 200 dmg spell must be a dual casted expert single target spell, no other spell gets that damage.

A single Thunderbolt costs 101 magicka with 100 Destruction and the perk so with top of the top of the gear you can get at random (I'm talking gear that probably only drops at close to level 50). Since you are dual casting it with the perk for stagger, it'll cost 180% more which is 282 magicka per cast. With 65% less destruction cost you'd be paying 100 magicka per cast.

How much magicka you have? Something like 500 let's say. Congrats, without enchanting and using THE best gear ever possible to find you can do 5 times 200 damage with a full magicka bar. 5 casts which is what you need to kill one Draugr Deathlord. Let's not talk about his 3 friends then.

But but but you say! You can use potions! A potion of Ultimate Magicka which is the best non alchemy crafted potion gives you 150 magicka each. Enough for 1.5 casts! Impressive.

Are you trying to be funny Your comparing exploited to the max meele/ranged with base destro

Why wouldnt I use chain lightining while fighting 3 Draugr ? Its half the cost of thunderbolt and hits 3 targets,
Why didnt you take into consideration that disintegrate kicks in when the enemy has less than 20% hp and kills it instantly ?

So chain lighting can be cast 12-14 times with 500 mana and does 132 dmg a hit. Yes its a bit weaker but still cost less than half the thunderbolt while hitting 3 targets at the same time. Does a Draug Deathlord go to 1k health? if yes the 4 thunderbolts kill him, for chain lighting it would be maybe 8 hits and you would kill 3 of them at once.

And in regards to your edit: Read the damned post. He made the comparison with and WITHOUT using smithing/enchanting, and using enchanting/smithing or not using it, melee was the clear CLEAR winner. Your stupidity is going into troll territory now. 

Thx for name calling when you didnt read it yourself. The conclusion was made with: non-expolited enchantings and exploited enchanting. Its you whose going into the troll territory sorry

Thx for name calling when you didnt read it yourself. The conclusion was made with: non-expolited enchantings and exploited enchanting. Its you whose going into the troll territory sorry

Now, let's jump to the endgame, and no enchantments(single skill only.)

One handed Mastery Weapon Stats(All Perks): Daedric Sword x2 (100 damage per hit, 300 damage per power strike, power strikes now take 75% of previous stamina and stamina meter is much larger. Assume 500 stamina(most points into stamina) Assume 10 power strikes before depleted: Total damage before depletion: 3000 damage, then damage drops to 100 damage per second)

Destruction Mastery Spell Stats(All perks): Lightning Storm Dual Casting (112.5 damage per second, 59 magicka per second. Assume 500 magicka(most points into magicka), lasts for about 10 seconds, for 1125 damage. Magicka regenerates at 3% per second, base, resulting in 28.125 damage per second once magicka is depleted.)

Crafting should be supplementary to the character builds, not a requirement.

So removing the only restriction on mages (magicka bar) isn't an exploit?
[No, it is an exploit, probably. Possibly not, but whats more important is that it isn't fun. 0 mana cost only cheats yourself. And you're using one extreme example to point at utilizing enchanting as a whole as an exploit. Which is ridiculous.] So then removing fatigue is just fine and dandy?

And lets talk about that heavy armored build. You are going to put perks into three skill trees, and only 3 skill trees. Smithing [Enchanting], Heavy armor [Alteration or Illusion], and one handed (dual wielding) [Destruction]. None in enchanting. You get one weapon of your choice with soul trap, the other with absorb stamina, and pick up azura's star while your at it (black or white version, doesn't matter). When you level up, you can put EVERY POINT into health, because thanks to absorb stamina, you always have 1 fatigue to use your power attack. Using no other enchants, you just turned a character into the juggernaut, no joke. I didn't even say what guardian stone to use, though it really doesn't matter. [This is exactly the same thing that a mage would do. Damage, defense or control, and tradeskill to support your playstyle. Mages don't play like the juggernaut though.]

This build removes the fatigue bar from melee combat, just like removing the magicka bar from mages. The difference is that the melee build can very much just jump into the middle of a group of enemies, and kill them all without even breaking a sweat. A mage who put every point into magicka just to be able to cast some of the stronger spells will die in one hit with some enemies. [Where to start? A mage intending to exploit 0 magicka cost would also put all points into health. Secondly, a destruction/alteration mage could do exactly what you just said better than a warrior type could. I can elaborate further if necessary.] And what does he gain for this disadvantage? The ability to stun lock an enemy to death? If I wanted to stun lock something to death, I'd play a rogue in WoW. The destruction perk tree doesn't consist of "interesting choices", it consists of mandatory perks. Every LAST one of them (save for increasing the range runes can be cast). Dual casting that staggers your enemies (up to, and including dragons) is cheap, no way about it. +50% damage to three types of magic damage is a joke when enemies later in the game have at least +400% health than they used to. More than that I'd wager. The minute you reach 100 destruction, you have plateaued in power. That is the strongest you'll ever be. It is very literally downhill from there, and that is a fact. [Is it? Alchemy can greatly effect this but you consider that exploiting. Also, with the same situation for a warrior, the second you equip 2 deadra blades and hit 100 in one-handed you have plateaued as well. Ignoring alchemy ofc.]

Breaking the game with enchants, and then saying, "See, I can do okay" doesn't mean it is okay. If destruction magic was weak in Oblivion, would you say the solution was to enchant a 100% chameleon suit of armor so you could attack without ever being attacked? If destruction magic was weak in Morrowind, would you say the solution was to soul trap glich your way to godhood? Besides, why have 0% destruction spell costs, when you could have 0% restoration costs, or 0% conjuration costs? Free heals, or even better, free minions! This is the problem! Every school of magic, with the exception of restoration (which has no damage moves) and alteration (which also has no damaging moves) will have a higher damage potential at 100 skill than destruction, a school who's only purpose is to hurt things. This is wrong.

You assume that your enemies will conveniently stand next to each other. The only time they do stand next to each other is when they're next to you beating your face in.

The conclusion was that with no enchanting or smithing, melee does more damage, with enchanting OR smithing (not both) melee does helluva lot more damage, and with both, lol magic. What conclusions did you read may I ask?

Final Conclusion, with all forms of enchanting:

One handed: 370 constant damage, ~1.1k power attack damage every ~3 seconds. Average: 613 damage per second.

Destruction: 146.25 damage per second. No power attacks. 146.25 damage per second.


Final Conclusion, without (possibly broken) enchanting:

One handed: 680 damage for 10 seconds, followed by 211 damage, with 680 power attack damage, average 367. With stamina potions stabilizes at 680.

Destruction: 146.25 damage per second for roughly six seconds, followed by ~28 damage per second indefinately. With magicka potions, stabilizes at 146.25 damage per second.