I've played DAOC, was a lot of fun and the RvR was, back in the day, a game-changer to be sure for the Everquest formula. However, it was not massively successful. That's not to say it wasn't good, not at all. Most MMOs I like are less successful than DAOC, ha!

I agree a lot of the concepts were ahead of their time, but execution-wise they weren't all there, similar in many ways to SWG. Now perhaps Matt Firor has a chance to make a DAOC-like game that he always dreamed of. Sadly, that means another, far more popular franchise is being sacrificed to do so.

I'm not discounting his ability completely, but I'm also thinking he was not at the very top of their list of available MMO designers. Top ten, sure, but not the first approach.

Another worry I have was that, since DAOC was such a fluke on his resume and everything else was pretty much licensed garbage, DAOC must have been his passion project, his "baby" so-to-speak, just like a game I'm working on (that will remain nameless) is to me. This can go two undesirable ways; he is trying to recreate the success of his baby and therefore sacrificing any and all TES elements to do that OR he is jaded from his first outing and has lost the real passion and drive to innovate, instead creating a rote rehashing of his previous success because it's the only thing he's ever done that even mildly worked.

When he was quoted as saying "if you want Skyrim, go play Skyrim" this was indicative not of passion, but of resentment for the TES audience trying to get in his way somehow and a blatant lack of understanding of what that audience would want out of a TES MMO by and large. That was a VERY worrying reaction.

I kind of like Firor (And Paul Sage), but I agree that his comments often feel alienating. The whole "we're trying to make a great game, not a great TES game" line he's used a few times feels really wrong to me. You don't say 'we're trying to make a great movie, not a great LOTR movie' - because the obvious response is: 'okay, come up with your own dang IP if you're not interested with keeping the franchise true to its core values.' I love the film There Will be Blood, but I wouldn't want that template of a 'great film' forced upon the LOTR IP, because the model for one great movie doesn't always fit the model for a separate great franchise - the same goes with games.

It's almost as if Firor had some ideas for an MMO he wanted to pursue, and the offer of leading TESO just gave him the perfect chance to enact his vision - whether or not it incorporated TES features was strictly a secondary consideration.

EDIT: Also on topic, OP is wrong to criticise because it's a newly-founded studio. The only question is whether a studio brings in experienced talent, not how new the name of the company is.

DAoC was successful at its peck, hell at its peak I bet it had more players than many other MMOs at theirs (granted release date has to be taken into account).

But the fact that the game is still been updated DESPITE been owned by EA has to mean something.

Several years ago a script floated across my desk for a Legend of Zelda movie. This was a legit script written by a fairly prominent writer. It was just after the second LOTR film had been released and it was basically a very dark, gritty, potentially R-rated interpretation of Legend of Zelda. I won't go into any major detail, but of course Nintendo said "hell no" and that was the end of it. Could it have been a good film? Maybe, the script wasn't bad and actually had a lot of interesting takes on the LoZ franchise that made it all very believable. Would it have fit the theme and feel of LoZ? No. Should it have been it's own fantasy story separate from LoZ? Yes, absolutely. Would have gotten funding that way? Not a chance in hell.

Granted we're talking about a derivative medium here. In TESO's case the medium hasn't changed, only the genre (and really it's a crossover genre, not even totally separate). It isn't like it is going from an RTS to an MMORPG (read: WoW) but it's going from an RPG to an MMORPG so it is so close to the bone for a lot of people.

I'm sure Firor is a nice guy but the more I think about it, the more I can't shake the idea that he is firmly grasped by a DAOC2 agenda, Elder Scrolls be damned...I hope not, but it sure feels that way.

A dark and gritty LoZ film would have been awesome.

It was an awesome script, but Nintendo would never go for it. Either way, would have been a great movie.

Yeah, very close to the bone. I certainly have no grounds for not liking or respecting the guys at ZOM, I just wonder if they have the right vision in mind for this particular project.

(OT) Also, you work/have worked in film too? Nice.

(clears throat) It did not even cross your mind that the folks at Zenimax Online could be fans of TES themselves?

That argument doesn't work for any franchise. 'The fans' are simply a much larger demographic than you could hope to sample in a single company. Furthermore, they are the consumers and are therefore not influenced by the commercial motivations that any business person experiences.

And that right there makes it a good choice not yo give the fans an in-road to the development process. ZOS is a business. And as much as a game is their product, they have got to design in from a business perspective. Every MMO that is developed is a multi-million dollar venture. And it's not just Zenimax's money that is tied up in it. You cannot do this degree of development unless you have some solid investors. And make no mistake. Those investors are going to want their money back along with a tidy profit. We may scream that we deserve to be involved because we'll be the ones spending money on it. Well here's a newsflash:

Someone has already spent money on TESO... A LOT of money... And without that money there would BE no TESO for us to spend money on.

I have said it before, there was a time where games were developed pretty much in a vacuum. There were no web sites we could go to to get up-to-the-minute updates of development progress. There were no forums for us to go to and give our opinion as if we know more than the industry professionals working on the game. I would go so far as to argue that back then was game development's golden age.

Don't get me wrong. I am as much a "fan" as anyone else. And I want TESO to succeed. But game development is an art as much as it is a business. And i would prefer ZOS, as the artist, to be free to explore their vision of this game as they see fit, and leave us to decide if we want to add it to out collection.

I see what they will launch next year as the core product, which will continue to evolve and grow in the months and hopefully years to follow. Just because it may launch without something doesn't mean it cannot be added. In fact, depending on what it is, I would rather they wait and dedicate serious development focus to it. Far too many times a feature is thrown in just so it will be included, and it is clearly half-baked, but it never gets touched again, or if it does, it happens so long after launch that they've pretty much lost those who otherwise would have been interested. So if the game launches without player housing, it gives them time to include it later and find a way to address the issues that have surrounded differenty types of housing mechanics in other MMOs and find a solution that works. What they need to understand when/if they approach such a system is that while SOME will use it just as a place to dump their stuff, others will see it as a little piece of the game world which they "own" and it become an element that gives them a real sense of personal belonging.

We may think we want this that and the other NOW, but when push comes to shove in the MMO genre, Having everything at launch tends to result in a lot of things feeling half-done or worse, just there as an appeasemant afterthought to the core game.

IF ZOS does their job right, when we play the finished product, we won't really think too much about what might have been done differently, or included in addition to everything else. We'll be engaged in what the game DOES offer and there will always be the knowledge that there will always be more to come.

I actually agree. I mean, I would've done TESO differently, but I still would've stuck to a path I thought profitable and advantageous.

The only thing I might add is that it pays to keep one ear open for the fans, just for when you're in a position to implement something that aligns with both yours and their interests. Since Skyrim, Beth has just been going down the list of [censored] people want to see, because they're ridiculously popular and basically they just can. But obviously, not everyone's in that situation all of the time.

They made DAOC

There is a time for the developers of a MMO to pay careful attention to what the fans say they want. That time begins the moment beta testing starts, and people start giving feedback. Fundamental gameplay mechanics are not easily change as they tend to intertwine with each other, so to alter one can have unexpected and sometimes nasty side-effects on others. And there is a difference between the types of feedback that the devs need to pay attention to. They should ignore the "I hate this because if it was me I would have done it bla bla bla" remarks. However if the feedback indicates a legitimate problem and it is something that can be addressed within the scope of beta, then it should be done. Far too many bugs in fundamental systems go live and in some cases never get addressed.

One of the things that some beta testers fail to understand is that they are not there to challenge the fundamental design framework of the game. They are there to test to make sure that framework is working as intended. Beta is not early playtime. It's test time. And anyone who is unwilling to devote themsef FIRMLY to that task should not pursue beta testing.

And one thing that some in this community fail to understand is that we are also not here to challenge the fundamental design framework of the game. At least not in any way that we should expect ZOS to drop what they are doing and take the game back to formula. Everybody has their own personal vision of what the perfect MMO based on their favorite IP should be like. But the major factor to remember is who is working for the development company and who is not. If one does not want an MMO set in the ES universe, then they should just decide right now that they are not going to buy it. If someone thinks that they can do a better job designing an MMO, then they need to get the investor funding, hire industry professionals, purchase all the hardware that will be needed to run the game, and be prepared to devote a minimum of five years of their lives solely to the task of seeing it done. If they cannot do this, then they need to just shut it.

Having said that there are several threads here discussing things like player housing (which we have been told will not be a part of the game at least at launch). These discussions are healthy and give the developers some framework to consider if/when they decide to add that feature to the game. And ZOS needs to be very open to and supportive of suggestions on how to improve the post-launch product. But the core product must work and it must be profitable. I'd rather they release a minimal product that does what it is supposed to do in all aspects and build upon it through patches and expansions. I've seen too many MMOs where the developers cram so many things in that are not even anything more than included as an afterthought just so they can say, "Oh yeah... it comes with cup holders!"

Features can be added and expanded upon. Fundamentals are what matters at launch.

They dont care what fans think. THey think they know best and they are even so arrogant to claim their game is third generation. This arrogance will get them in trouble I predict

No peep out of them here so far either.

Fans THINK things ought to be a certain way.
Devs KNOW things are the way they are.

If anyone is really so sure that they know how to do it better, then get an investor, rent an office building, hire a team. Buy all their computers and pay for licensing of all the professional dev software they'll be using, buy all the server hardware the game will be running on, pay for all the corporate-grade broadband pipelines you'll need, not just for the office, but for each server the game will run on. Then devote a minimum of five years developing the game, reveal it to the public and read all the posts from armchair developers who claim they know how to do a better job than you.

I agree with the first but not the second. Devs don't always know - look at TOR, they completely failed to estimate the rate at which people would reach (and grow bored of) end game. In fact, nearly every MMO since WoW has failed to meet its predicted quota of subscribers, at least long-term - if every developer KNEW things the way they were, every game would have to be a smash hit. TESO has every chance of missing the mark, and it may even be that the fans will see it coming before they do. That's not to say fans are always right or anything, but neither are developers. Nor does development duration mean bugger all - Skyrim took about 3 years, and Duke Nukem Forever close to 15. Also, it's a non sequitur to claim that someone who may have a better idea can just click their fingers and make it happen. As it turns out, there are many game ideas that have been more profitable than TOR at far less expense, but it doesn't mean that anyone can just make 200 million in capital appear out of thin air. Many 'visionaries' have to wait decades to see their projects through, if they manage it at all.

In fact, the whole 'if you criticize it, it means you can do it better' line is just patently rubbish in any situation. Did a single reviewer or film goer in the entire world enjoy the Green Lantern movie? Of course not. Does that mean there's ten million people out there who all deserve their chance to make a AAA blockbuster film? No. Do I think Beethoven's third is overrated? Yes. Can I write a better symphony? Once again, no. The word 'flop' wouldn't exist if every developer was great and knew what they were doing, because (speaking as someone who's worked in films for over a decade) I can tell you that the best talent in any industry can still royally [censored] things up.

Waaaaay ahead of you.

And as a dev, I can tell you, they never KNOW anything. One of the most valuable things for a developer is outside input and knowing how to properly filter it. If they're not willing to listen to their fan-base (Paul Sage said they'll start listening in Beta, which imho is too late) then who exactly do they think they're making this game for? Some nebulous group of MMO players who don't care about TES? Wrong. They have statistics backing up the idea that they have a built-in base of fans and that is how they convinced a private equity company to sink 300 million dollars into this endeavor. They showed them charts and graphs of Skyrim sales and said "we're guaranteed this many."

Now their game design is pushing that number WAY down.

I agree with you that there is still time for them to revamp the game, but even if they were to retool the combat system to be more like TES (one of my major issues), it had better not happen AFTER launch. By then it will be too late and we will have another game-killing NGE/CU on our hands. I could be wrong though, it could be a game-saving NGE/CU. Time will tell ultimately, but if they're not listening to the overwhelmingly negative reaction so many in the press and consumer base have had then they have blinders on. Sometimes you don't need to play a game to know what it will be like. I don't need to taste crap to know it tastes like crap.

I recall that following the announcement, there was some effort by Sage to sell the combat as 'pretty much like Skyrim, kinda' - he says about as much in a couple of E3 interviews. The problem is I'm hearing from most sources (including you) that it just ain't. It says something about their shifting opinion on the matter, however I'm still willing to bet that this thing will ship with identical combat to what it has now - there just isn't a single instance of such a mechanic being overhauled in a AAA title after being revealed. In any event, as I've suggested before, it's my opinion that the developers (particularly Firor) seem to prefer the idea of non-RT combat, regardless of latency as an issue. It's where MMOs and TES are at loggerheads, and I think on this point (and quite a few others) Firor is more keen to side with the MMO standard practice as personal preference, rather than as something that's actually in the best interests of the franchise.

And I must say, I'd kill to hear Todd Howard's genuine opinion on the whole thing. I regard his comment made last year as pretty telling, considering what he knew at the time; but even so it'd be interesting to hear an honest thought, although he's basically bound by his work to follow the party line.

That would be VERY interesting.

The only case I can cite of a major MMO completely changing its approach is Star Wars Galaxies. They completely changed how the game worked and how the combat handled after 2 years of being live. It was called the NGE (New Game Improvements) and the CU (Combat Upgrade). It effectively ruined SWG, taking away most of the hard-core elements that the fanbase loved. They did it because of World of Warcraft stealing a lot of the more casual players and it backfired on them horribly.

I seriously doubt that any company would try something like that again. If any game could use an NGE/CU it's TESO. I have my hopes and I have my doubts. They have time to fix it, but I seriously doubt they will bother.

Yeah, it was daft of me to have forgotten SWG - I was thinking of games being still in development at the time of the change occurring, but obviously post-release would be an equally valid scenario.

ArcheAge is close to SWG. Flying aeroplanes, ships. movable cannons, player cities.I dont know if its craft driven though, I think that was big part of SWG experience for me personally.

I mean try the NGE/CU, not SWG mechanics. There's also Darkfall that has pretty much everything you described and a lot of crafting, but I meant shifting major mechanics mid-stream.

Oh. I know Darkfall but ArcheAge goes ALOT further from that, its budget is good 40 mill.

TESO survive but falls short from what Ive seen so far. Call my crazy but I expect Titan sells 10+ mill. MMO market is huge absolutely massive but it belong to Blizzard.

HMm. I againt think SWG's kind of huge changes are necessary thats, if we ever see another popular MMO, what actually lives. Its just thing what MMOs need to do in order to live. SOE had a good attempt.

Skyrim sold more than 10K, and obviously WoW has, so it's not crazy. I actually just wrote about Titan at some length here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1380881-what-does-everyone-think-of-it/page__st__60

Regarding TESO, I think it'll do quite well actually, but it's not going to compete with Blizzard in terms of being neck-on-neck. It'll be very much a one horse race, still.