A true artist does not practice their art for anyone other than themself. They may do commission work for clients, but they use their own style which the client generally likes, otherwise they wouldn't commission the artist to do a job. And I do agree that beta is when they should start listening. Right now, none of us have a clear picture as to how everything is going to be. You can bet that they will be paying attention to the reviews given by those who actually had hands-on experience with the game at E3. But most of the reviews suggest that polish is really what is needed. The game is functional, but it is not finalized. A lot of adjustments can and will be made between now and Beta. If I were developing a title, I would want to listen to those who have tested it and can tell me what they have seen that needs adjusting, not what they just think needs adjusting.


And yet how many in the skyrim community attack BSG for releasing such a dumbed-down game? Numbers do lie in some cases. Skyrim sold a lot of copies, but the general concensus, when you take EVERYONE'S opinion into account, is that it is a mediocre game at best. The same was true for Oblivion. When you review the general concensus of the Elder Scrolls community on which game was the best, data points to Daggerfall, with Morrowind coming in a close second. Skyrim's combat was essentially the same as Oblivion's combat which was only a step above Morrowind's combat. And guess what? General concensus said that the weakest aspect of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim is the combat.


No. The fact that this is an MMO and that the bulk of those who went out and bought Skyrim are in fact console gamers, the bulk of which have never even played an MMO is what has driven the number down. Comparing one to the other is like comparing a steak to an apple. And if an investor is too stupid to do his due dilligence and research the difference between genres then if they lose money on the deal, it's their fault. Of course, ZOS would be responsible for coughing up the return on the investment regardless...


The CU and NGE were not just combat system revamps. They were full-blown changes to fundamental design elements which essentially resulted in an entirely new game almost. It had far-reaching ramifications on the entire playerbase. More with the NGE than the CU, but both were catastrophic to the subscriber base... Now when Cryptic Studios announced that they were redoing the ground combat system for Star Trek Online, the forums erupted in anti-CU/NGE sentiments (including a few of my own), but when all was said and done, the sky did not fall. They limited their changes to ground combat only, and addressed the issues that were most reported by the players. It did not globally redefine the game and was seen by most as an improvement. Most of the ones who continued to complain were mainly offended that their ideas were not implemented. Everything reasonable was considered.


The thing is, ultimately, an MMO is more than the sum of its parts. We've only been shown the basics, which will no doubt evolve over the next year. We have not been told about advanced features. Crafting has not been revealed yet. And we no nothing about the social aspects of the game aside from having been told that they are putting a lot of them into it. It is how all of the different parts interact with each other and ultimately what we will be able to do within the scope of what they are designing the game to be. And we still know very little about most of it. The most important thing about an MMO is not even systemic, really. It's what the game will have us doing, and how its developers manage to keep it fresh.

Compare an MMO to a human being. Internally, they really all boil down to the same thing in terms of form and function. Appearance and ideas are what set them apart. It's how the MMO gets fleshed out that determines how good it ultimately will be. Even with a mediocre combat system or lack of player housing, or a limited crafting system. If gameplay content is designed to USE the systems to good effect, the aesthetics will take over. It's the difference between just rushing in and killing everything that moves, and being careful what you do because if you alert the enemy, innocent people will die and you fail the quest.

Content is King!

I wish SWG would be plugged back in. I miss my spined rancor!

I think we are all jumping the gun a little too early here with TESO, especially all the Explorers.

And speaking of combat, I'm not sure how a combat system similar to what we have in Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim will work in an MMO. That feature has me the most curious.

You are incorrect that the 300 million are only used for Elder Scrolls Online and ZeniMax Online Studios.
The invesment from Providence Equity Partners is used fund future growth, increase game development and publishing, facilitate acquisitions, and finance massively multiplayer online game. Also no Skyrim didn,t came out before they received the investment,i think you mean oblivion sales not skyrim sales.
Source:
http://www.zenimax.com/news_pressrelease10.25.07.htm
But i understand what you are saying.

Also interesting little article regarding 38 studios,ZeniMax,and Providence Equity Partners.
http://www.techzone360.com/news/2011/01/08/5232949.htm

Also question if i write a topic ,regarding why Elder Scrolls Online won,t effect ZeniMax and their subsidiary,s should i write it here? or somewhere else.

That's just investor talk, it could all be for TESO, there's really no way to know, but considering TOR's production budget of 200m and marketing budget of 150m it's not unreasonable to suggest that a fully voiced MMO like TESO would demand that kind of price-tag, especially with the 250-person team that ZOS has. It is rare that a firm like Providence would direct their funding into a slate of games, some of which have no track records, like Dishonored. If any of the money might have been channeled elsewhere the only logical avenue would be Fallout 4, BGS' current game. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd be surprised if they pull off TESO for much less than 300m including marketing.

Also, that's very true, it would have been Oblivion sales that would have made the investors perk up. "Our franchise guarantees this many buys." *points to Oblivion sales figures* Skyrim has likely only bolstered Providence's excitement about the project.

That is a very interesting article, I imagine they are biting their nails a little now that 38 studios has gone under.

As for why you think the losses would remain isolated, a new topic might be good, but either way it is fun to discuss.


Practice and implementation are two different things, and you speak of game designers as if they are starving, lone artists painting on a canvas in a loft apartment in SoHo. This couldn't be further from the truth, and in this case, they are as much craftsmen and businessmen as they are artists. There is a lot of technicality that goes into game design as well as creativity.

As for the general consensus of game journalists, polish doesn't seem to be the tone I have been seeing at all. The tone is "who cares" or "why bother" from most. The tone is that there is nothing interesting about TESO and that is easily the worst review one can get. They aren't saying "with a little polish this could be a great game" they are saying "even if polished this will still be a mediocre game."



I've been around this community and the outlying splinters of this community for some time (don't let my join date fool you, this is probably my 5th forum account here) and the disappointment and distaste here is unprecedented. Those complaining about the dumbing down of TES toward Skyrim were a vocal minority. I agree in some ways it was dumbed down but it was nothing game-breaking in my view and once people played the game it was enough of an Elder Scrolls game that it satisfied most.

I never saw a general consensus that anyone would ever prefer MMO combat to real-time combat, they just wanted the combat improved. It was in Skyrim, but not as far as it could have been. Combat for me has always been a highlight of these games since no one else does it like this and it is easily the most visceral and involving, even in Morrowind.


And from that portion, now their potential sales are being driven further down by their lackluster showing at E3 and proposed mechanics that very few are particularly interested in at this point. It's also a little black&white to assume console players don't play MMOs, a great deal may just not have a PC that will support Skyrim, but can run WoW like a charm. I'm sure if the MMO was compelling enough, and they were TES fans, they'd figure out a way to play.


Right, exactly, but the CU was just that: a Combat Upgrade. That's all it dealt with. I honestly think this game could use an NGE: Get rid of classes, make the progression skill-based, add player housing, unlock races and factions, create PvP FFA servers, unlock the Cyrodiil region from PvP, make territory control possible over all of Tamriel and FIX the combat. That's about an NGE-level-event right there.

You're also proving my point with STO, when you do an NGE/CU correctly, you win. When you ruin what people love like they did in SWG, you lose. TESO basically has pre-ruined what many love about TES and not by being an MMO, but by being a limited, backwards-thinking MMO with outdated and pointlessly restrictive design.


You're corrrect, content is king, but what many fail to realise until they've made a game themselves is that every aspect of that game (this goes for film, tv, music, books as well) is content. The combat mechanics ARE content. The interface IS content. The art-style IS content. It is all inextricably linked to the content of the game.

So yes, a game is more than the some of its parts, but each part must embody that whole. Each part must be working in concert to create the whole. Right now they have a bunch of messy parts and no whole. They can fix this, but I am doubtful they will bother.