An Idea of how Vampires and Werewolves Could Have Been Done

Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:37 am

Hello everyone

As most of you know, several people, myself included, have complained at length about how vampires and lycanthropes were handled in Skyrim. The lack of significant drawbacks made playing either of them lackluster, little more than a slight boost in abilities, rather than the mixed blessing/curse they should have been. Dawnguard improved some things, such as making werewolves more viable at higher levels with the new perk tree, but I can’t help but feel for all that it apparently did right, there are still some massive oversights and baffling design decisions that hurt it, in regard to both vampires and lycanthropes.

That got me thinking, what would be a better way of addressing these abilities in Skyrim, as well as future games. After thinking about it for quite a while, I have drafted the following ideas that I feel would be a better system for Skyrim’s vampires and lycanthropes than what we currently have. Some of these ideas will be familiar, as I have stated them in various threads throughout my time here, but I figured it was high time to pool all of those posts together to create a concentrated thread about them, rather than juggling 30 conversations across various threads.

So let’s start with vampires. Specifically with the Cyrodiilic strain of vampires. We’ll start here because of their backwards feeding mechanic. You get stronger the less you feed, at the cost of your ability to blend in. Just a heads up that this is a long, long piece. I started writing it and didn't realize how long it was until I was done. For your convenience, I'll break it up into various Spoilered chapter things.

Cyrodiilic Vampires
Spoiler
Largely, I feel the Cyrodiilic strain should be kept how it was in Oblivion, with the powers you gain in Skyrim added as well. You take on sun damage at higher levels and people don’t want to have anything to do with you. However, I also feel feeding should be encouraged, which is why I’d have the Cyrodiilic vampires have a huge boost to speech/barter when at level 1. This I feel fits well with the Order’s MO of manipulating people, and would provide at least marginal incentive to people to keep themselves well fed besides the townspeople trying to kill you. Feeding should also only regress you one stage, rather than reset you back to stage one each time. Vampiric Drain’s effect should also be strengthened, but that will be developed further below.

Location wise, I feel that the vampires of the Order would be best suited to the western half of Skyrim, and other areas that lack considerable amounts of snow. While they could be found in various caves and other hiding spots, several high profile NPCs should be of this strain as well (such as Sybille Stentor), indicating that the Order has begun to move in on Skyrim. In the case of that quest that Sybille gives you, you should be tasked with eliminating Volkihar, becoming an unwitting pawn in the Order’s schemes of ousting their competition.

Non-Cyrodiilic Feeding Mechanic:
Spoiler
Now that we’ve gotten the Cyrodiilic strain out of the way, let’s take a look at feeding. In my opinion, only the Cyrodiilic vampires should be encouraged not to feed (and even that’s debatable). Other vampires, such as the Volkihar and the new Vampire Lords, should be encouraged to feed at regular intervals. And here is where I propose a new feeding system. Vampirism should keep stages with these two strains, but in a different way. Here’s the rank system I propose:

Vampire Fledgling: What you are when you first turn.
Blooded Vampire: Lowest form of vampirism after you level from feeding for the first time.
Vampire Mistwalker: Second Stage
Vampire Nighstalker: Third Stage
Master Vampire: Highest level of vampirism.

Rather than increasing in a level of vampirism by not feeding, you would grow a level after feeding on X amount of people, either by feeding on them in their sleep, or by the current method Vampire Lords use to level up and gain perks. Currently I was thinking that you’d level to Blooded after 10, Mistwalker after 25, Nightstalker after 75, and Master Vampire after 150 victims.

As previously stated, you would regress if in power if you didn’t feed regularly. If you were a Master Vampire, and you didn’t feed for three days, you’d regress to Nightsalker and have to regain your Master status. If you didn't feed for another three days, you'd regress to Mistwalker, and so on, all the way back down to Blooded Vampire.

With vampires under this feeding system, there wouldn’t be the current system of seesawing drawbacks and bonuses. Being a vampire in the early stages would be a hard (un)life. Your weaknesses would be maximized and your bonuses would be negligible. However, if you survived long enough to reach the highest levels of vampirism, the reverse would be true. You’d have maximized strengths and lesser weaknesses. These effects would be determined based on what type of vampire you were. A Master Volkihar would have different abilities than a Master Vampire Lord, and thus feel different in combat. We’ll start looking at this proposed new system with the Volkihar.

The Volkihar
Spoiler
The Volkihar are ice based creatures, and as such many of their abilities would factor the cold. They’d also be much more about up close combat, rather than the Cyroidiilic strains emphasis on Sneak and Illusion.

Constant Abilities throughout stages: Water Breathing, Night Eye, +15 unarmed damage, Vampiric Drain, and the ability to access 4-5 Volkihar dens throughout Skyrim (homes located under the ice).

Blooded Vampire: 5 points of damage per second in sunlight, 100% weakness to fire, 10% resistance to frost, 5 points of frost and stamina damage with unarmed attacks. Vampiric drain does 5 points of damage per second.

Vampire Mistwalker: 3 points of damage per second in sunlight, 75% weakness to fire, 40% resistance to frost, 10 points of frost and stamina damage with unarmed attacks. Vampiric Drain does 10 points of damage per second. Also gains the ability Freeze: a once a day power similar to Ice Form.

Vampire Nightstalker: 2 points of damage per second in sunlight, 40% weakness to fire, 75% resistance to frost, 20 points of frost and stamina damage with unarmed attacks. Vampiric Drain does 15 points of damage per second. Also gains the ability Snow Veil: A once a day power similar to Frost Cloak that also increases the regen rate of H/M/S while damaging nearby opponents.

Master Vampire: 1 point of damage per second in sunlight, 10% weakness to fire, 100% resistance to frost, 30 points of frost and stamina damage with unarmed attacks. Vampiric Drain does 20 points of damage per second. Also gains the abilities Snow Storm: A once a day power similar to Blizzard that can be used without charging and Frozen Forms: A once a day power similar to Ice Form, but with an area of effect.

As a Volkihar, most of the ordinary denizens of Skyrim would want little to do with you. Thus there would be several Volkihar Dens scattered throughout Skyrim that you could use to establish homes. They’d mostly be found in airpockets that could be accessed by diving into lakes and finding the tunnels leading to them, or by finding the part of the frozen surface of the lake you could “activate” to go through the ice and enter your home. They’d provide safe storage, a bed to rest, and other benefits to the player to make up for the fact they wouldn’t be welcome in most other places, and would offer a variety of qualities of life (I’d really like one to be in a sunken ship, but logistics might pose a problem).

There’d also be a few Volkihar dens (mostly in the east) that had others of your kind where you could go to exchange gear and buy supplies and other such needs, and I’d suggest there being an item called Veil of the Volkihar, which would allow you to disguise yourself in towns when worn that could be acquired after a fairly long Volkihar questline.

Vampire Lord
Spoiler
As for the Vampire Lords, it’s difficult for me to say what should be done with them. It needs to be a sort of marriage between the outcast Volkihar and the Cyrodiilic strain that blends in with its prey.

Constant Abilities: Night Eye, +10 unarmed damage, Vampiric Drain.

Blooded Vampire: -40 to H/M/S and regen rate is cut in half in sunlight, Vampiric Drain does 5 points of damage per second, NPCs hostile. 100% weakness to sunlight weapons/magic.

Vampire Mistwalker: -30 to H/M/S and regen rate is cut in half in sunlight, Vampiric Drain does 10 points of damage per second, NPCs hostile. 75% weakness to sunlight weapons/magic. Also gains Vampire Seduction.

Vampire Nighstalker: -20 to H/M/S and regen rate is cut in half in sunlight, Vampiric Drain does 15 points of damage per second, NPCs not hostile when not transformed. 40% weakness to sunlight weapons/magic. Vampire Seduction becomes stronger.

Master Vampire: -10 to H/M/S and regen rate is normal in sunlight. Vampiric Drain does 20 points of damage per second, NPCs not hostile when not transformed. 10% weakness to sunlight weapons/magic. Gains the Power Bat Form, which allows them to turn into a flock of bats even when not transformed (continuously drains magicka). NPCs will become hostile if they see you transform to or from this state.

However, I feel that they should have increased sun damage in their transformed states. This would encourage those who wish to utilize the Vampire Lord form to blot out the sun when they feel like transforming. To that end, the stat reduction is strengthened by 1.5 when transformed in sunlight and the weakness to sunlight weapons/magic is doubled.

Vampire Summations
Spoiler
In effect, the three vampire forms would be set to different playstyles. Those favoring Rouge builds would find the Cyrodiilic Order more to their liking than the Mages, who would gravitate towards Vampire Lord. Volkihar would be for Warriors, allowing them to continuously keep their enemies drained of stamina and unable to do power attacks/move quickly.

Shared bonuses across all vampires regardless of stage would be:
Night Eye
+10 unarmed damage boost (+15 for Volkihar)
Vampiric Drain
+5% H/M/S regen rate at night
Disease Immunity
Poison Immunity

Shared weaknesses across all vampires regardless of stage would be:
20 point extra damage when hit with Silver
20 point extra damage when hit with sunlight weapons/magic
No H/M/S regen when wearing silver equipment

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s move on to lycanthropes. (Don’t worry, this will be considerably shorter.)

Lycanthropes
Spoiler
Werewolves overall seem to be fine now, minus a few tweaks. These tweaks would largely be necessary to help make them different from another lycanthrope many of us have wanted to come across since we first heard about them: Werebears. One of these tweaks would be to include both werebears and werewolves, in pre-transformed states on the roads, and in transformed states in the wilds. I know we have wild werewolves already, but there’s one problem: They can’t infect you. I really think that has to be changed so that you can become a werewolf without having to join the Companions.

For starters, let’s look at what all lycanthropes should have in common:

Forced lunar transformations twice a month (Companion’s werewolves would be exempt, as would those wearing the Ring of Hircine). Transformations would last from 8 PM to 530 AM, and you would be notified about it several hours before the transformation sets in, giving you plenty of time to get out of town before you change.
Night Eye ability in both human and beastform
+10 Unarmed Damage when in human form (+20 for Werebears)
Ability to toggle between various howls/roars and Night Eye
+5% H/M/S regen rate in human form
20 points extra damage in both human and beast form when struck by silver weapons.
H/M/S don’t regenerate when silver items equipped
No rested bonuses while having the beastblood
Disease Immunity

To make werebears feel different than their werewolf counterparts, I propose the following:
Base their damage on Two-Handed Skill.
Base their armor on Heavy Armor (AR rating of 350 at 100 skill level)
Give them 300 extra Health and Stamina upon transforming.
Their sprinting speed should be a little faster than a horse, but gobble stamina. Conversely, their power attacks would use little stamina.
Their normal walking speed should be a tad slower than human form.

Werewolves on the other hand:
Base their damage on One-Handed Skill
Base their armor on Light Armor (AR rating of 175 at 100 skill level)
Gain only 100 extra Health and Stamina upon transforming
Very fast sprint speed and slow rate of stamina depletion while sprinting
Power attacks use more stamina than werebears.
Faster walking speed than human form.
Give them the ability to Sneak.

Werebears would have Roars, similar to werewolves’ Howls. These are the ideas for Roars I currently have:
Fear Roar (Stronger than werewolves’ similar Howl)
Disarm Roar (Disarms nearby opponents)
Adrenaline Roar (Roar that causes werebears H/S regen rate to skyrocket for 60 seconds similar to Histskin and Adrenaline Rush. Longer cooldown than other Roars)

So there you have it. My ideas for how vampires and lycanthropes should have been done for Dawnguard. Maybe some of this will be implemented in later DLCs, but I’m not exactly holding my breath about it.

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments?

EDIT: Forgot to add that both Vampires and Lycanthropes would continue to have disease immunity, while the vampires also held onto their poison immunity.

EDIT EDIT: I feel I need to emphasize this point. The above thoughts are what I feel should have been implemented rather than what we got in Dawnguard. Pointing out what Dawnguard has largely established is pointless in arguing against these points because this is about what I feel should have been done instead. You're free to point out what things you think work in Dawnguard but remember that these ideas were largely a retrospect, looking at the baffling design and story mistakes Bethesda made with its new DLC, and what I feel they should have done instead.
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teeny
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:20 am

I...rather like it honestly...By nature i have always been a Cyrodiilic Strain but i have a Volkihar character made to fit the archetype. Having 3 separate versions makes it more like MW BUT also in the way that OB had where Vamps were of any class. The veil idea has always been good but seeing as the Volkihar are ancient i would expect an enchanted amulet or something that hides their form rather than something so blunt as a mask...but then again who knows right? I give it a thumbs up

Also if there were 2 sets of Lycanthropy (Glenmoril and Classic) then everybody would get what they wanted...so that is good as well
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Steeeph
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:41 am

:thumbsup:
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Emma Pennington
 
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Post » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:32 pm

I...rather like it honestly...By nature i have always been a Cyrodiilic Strain but i have a Volkihar character made to fit the archetype. Having 3 separate versions makes it more like MW BUT also in the way that OB had where Vamps were of any class. The veil idea has always been good but seeing as the Volkihar are ancient i would expect an enchanted amulet or something that hides their form rather than something so blunt as a mask...but then again who knows right? I give it a thumbs up

Also if there were 2 sets of Lycanthropy (Glenmoril and Classic) then everybody would get what they wanted...so that is good as well

The reason I went with "Veil of the Volkihar" was purely out of alliterative appeal.
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An Lor
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:41 am

I have nothing but intense hatred for cyrodiilic vampires and hope to god there not in the next TES game im tired of the backwards feeding nonsense.
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[Bounty][Ben]
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:19 am

I have nothing but intense hatred for cyrodiilic vampires and hope to god there not in the next TES game im tired of the backwards feeding nonsense.

I'm no fan of their mechanics, but I think the Order seems like an interesting organization in the TES universe and I'd like to see it play a larger role (though never actually being the enemies you face in the MQ).
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M!KkI
 
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Post » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:53 pm

I'm no fan of their mechanics, but I think the Order seems like an interesting organization in the TES universe and I'd like to see it play a larger role (though never actually being the enemies you face in the MQ).

I wanna see other vampires from valenwood or argonia or something just not the cyrodiilic ones as they have been in 2 games already its time for some other clans to get some screen time.
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Marquis deVille
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:45 am

I'm no fan of their mechanics, but I think the Order seems like an interesting organization in the TES universe and I'd like to see it play a larger role (though never actually being the enemies you face in the MQ).
Everyone now in this day and age sees vamps as the same but Cyrodiilic Vamps are unique in their methods and that alone makes them crucial to TES and they deserve to stay, but this false Volkihar trash in Skyrim better not repeat in the next one. The new variant better be what the lore declares it is and not a Cyrodiilic Vamp with a different title. The Cyros should be separate
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Your Mum
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:40 am

I wanna see other vampires from valenwood or argonia or something just not the cyrodiilic ones as they have been in 2 games already its time for some other clans to get some screen time.

I completely agree. I don't want us to get the Cyrodiilic strain and only that in Black Marsh or any of the other provinces. I want there to be a variety of vampires in all the games, so you can pick the one that works for you (or at least have something new to hunt). That's what was/is so disappointing with Skyrim. Vampires are just lackluster.

I don't see what would be wrong with including the Cyrodiilic strain in say, Black Marsh, though. The Order thinks the Whet-Fangs are one of their biggest rivals, so a sidequestline where you play one or the other and try and wipe them out sounds like great fun to me.

If we're only going to get one type of vampire per game, they should axe the Cyrodiilic types. We've played them before and it's time for something new. But if they want to have a variety of vampires and some intrigue between them, I'm all for having the Order make a return. Just so long as it isn't at the expense of the local vampires making their debut.
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sarah taylor
 
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Post » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:15 pm

I completely agree. I don't want us to get the Cyrodiilic strain and only that in Black Marsh or any of the other provinces. I want there to be a variety of vampires in all the games, so you can pick the one that works for you (or at least have something new to hunt). That's what was/is so disappointing with Skyrim. Vampires are just lackluster.

I don't see what would be wrong with including the Cyrodiilic strain in say, Black Marsh, though. The Order thinks the Whet-Fangs are one of their biggest rivals, so a sidequestline where you play one or the other and try and wipe them out sounds like great fun to me.

If we're only going to get one type of vampire per game, they should axe the Cyrodiilic types. We've played them before and it's time for something new. But if they want to have a variety of vampires and some intrigue between them, I'm all for having the Order make a return. Just so long as it isn't at the expense of the local vampires making their debut.

Yeah i agree im still pissed they kept the backwards feeding for harkons strain >.< plus i hope the volkhihar vamp lords stay and are in the next TES because it was fun to play as a vamp from a pure non-diluted strain of vampirism :)
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Hilm Music
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:50 am

I absolutely love most of those ideas, I really hope that someone with some influence reads them and takes them on board. Only one thing I didn't like, the damage and armour being based on existing skills in light/heavy armour and melee. My werewolf character is a two handed, heavy armoured warrior and his beast form would be somewhat gimped by your suggestion of how that works. If you want to be a werewolf or a werebear then you want that simply because you think they're cool and would be fun to play. I love werewolves but I'm not so interested in the bears. It would be a shame if I had to choose based on my existing skillset rather than personal preference.

As a suggestion vampire wise I would put forward the idea of a sneak based feed attack. Similar to when you approach a sleeping NPC in sneak you get a feed or pickpocket option I think a similar thing would work as a way to combine feeding and attacking. If you sneak up on an NPC and activate them you could have the option of pickpocket or drain. If you choose drain then you grab the NPC and bite them fataly, which would count as a feed as well as a kill. It would be one more way of feeding, and also it would be pretty badass.
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flora
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:40 am

I just noticed.
title should say "should have been" not "Could have been"
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Elizabeth Davis
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:37 am

Yeah i agree im still pissed they kept the backwards feeding for harkons strain >.< plus i hope the volkhihar vamp lords stay and are in the next TES because it was fun to play as a vamp from a pure non-diluted strain of vampirism :smile:
That presents a problem for Beth though. They have just added a super-powerful form that has an entire new chunk of lore behind it and can have characters completely modeled around it so now they have to find a way to include it in the next game...i hope they dont botch it
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Prohibited
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:18 am

That presents a problem for Beth though. They have just added a super-powerful form that has an entire new chunk of lore behind it and can have characters completely modeled around it so now they have to find a way to include it in the next game...i hope they dont botch it

Same i love what they did with the VL and harkons family and everything (that ponytail on the female VL has to go though :yuck:) and i hope they expand on it somemore.
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:28 am

I just noticed.
title should say "should have been" not "Could have been"

Lol. I made sure it was "could have been" so people didn't jump on my case because they loved what Bethesda did and complain about me stating my opinion as fact.

Yeah i agree im still pissed they kept the backwards feeding for harkons strain >.< plus i hope the volkhihar vamp lords stay and are in the next TES because it was fun to play as a vamp from a pure non-diluted strain of vampirism :smile:

So what do you think of the new feeding mechanic I proposed? Does that work for you?
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amhain
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:33 am

Lol. I made sure it was "could have been" so people didn't jump on my case because they loved what Bethesda did and complain about me stating my opinion as fact.



So what do you think of the new feeding mechanic I proposed? Does that work for you?

I think its pretty good and hopefully vsions sees it and pitches the idea to todd :)
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neen
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:34 am

Loved the ideas as these should of been implemented in the first place instead of butchering the lore and adding in these so called "Volkihar" vampires. Hopefully they listen to these ideas enough to feature them in the future.
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Alberto Aguilera
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:50 am

Thanks REL_Dovahkin for a lucid and obviously well thought out post. You've certainly given us much to mull over :thanks: !!
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helen buchan
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:41 am

I like the idea of different feeding systems but the way you scaled the benefits and drawbacks Was to high IMO. For example the +30 frost and stamina damage seems a bit much. Other than that I would like to see these ideas implemented.

As for the wolves the only problem I have is basing their attack damage and armor rating on a specific skill. I don't think that lycans or vamps should have a natural physical damage resistance when in beast form. As for weapon skill It is forcing you to choose a specific play style if you want to be a were-creature. I think it would work better if you could talk to Eorlund at the skyforge to make you armor for your lycan form. Light armor would give you a small armor boost and a small reduction to speed, while heavy would give you a large reduction to speed but high armor. Then players would be free to build there character however they wanted and armor perks such as fists of steel and conditioning would carry over into beast form.
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gandalf
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:13 am

I like the ideas. Multiple Vampire clans and werecreatures sound good.

To be honest I was hoping for werebears in the dlc. :(

I have a character famous for fighting off an onslaught of bears in OB that I recreated for Skyrim and werebear lycanthropy would have been perfect for him. Bears were his hated enemy, but now he becomes one!
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krystal sowten
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:15 am

Why didn't I see this topic earlier on? Excellent post.

Everyone now in this day and age sees vamps as the same but Cyrodiilic Vamps are unique in their methods and that alone makes them crucial to TES and they deserve to stay, but this false Volkihar trash in Skyrim better not repeat in the next one. The new variant better be what the lore declares it is and not a Cyrodiilic Vamp with a different title. The Cyros should be separate
Cyrodiilic vampires should have their own questlines in the game that could branch out into many different tasks, including wiping out other feral vampires in the area to help consolidate their power. But what would truly be interesting is to see the Order tied in with the Thalmor. To see those two groups fight each other would be amazing. It would make sense for the Order to be involved in politics since the Thalmor are pulling the Empire along on a leash, and it was the Empire who unwillingly place them as the top vampires of Cyrodiil.

It is implied that they do migrate, considering Cyrodiil became their place of operations in the Third Era. Since it is the fourth and Skyrim seems to be the hot-spot with the Volkihar problems, then it would make sense for them to want to go there. Plus, we already have Movarth and his small coven.
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:54 am

Good show old man :thumbsup:
I can't speak for the vampire stuff ( I really don't like the vampires ) but from the werewolf side you hit the nail on the head. :yes:
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BrEezy Baby
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:37 am

Great topic!

Don't get me wrong I like Vampire Lords, but this is how they should've done vampires in Dawnguard. I also like your ideas for Lycanthropes, werebears playing more like tanks and werewolves(while still powerful) being more like swift assassins. And since we have wild werewolves, It would seem easy for bethesda to add lunar tranformations and the option to contract Sanies Lupinus in a patch.
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Heather Stewart
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:44 am

Why didn't I see this topic earlier on? Excellent post.

Cyrodiilic vampires should have their own questlines in the game that could branch out into many different tasks, including wiping out other feral vampires in the area to help consolidate their power. But what would truly be interesting is to see the Order tied in with the Thalmor. To see those two groups fight each other would be amazing. It would make sense for the Order to be involved in politics since the Thalmor are pulling the Empire along on a leash, and it was the Empire who unwillingly place them as the top vampires of Cyrodiil.

It is implied that they do migrate, considering Cyrodiil became their place of operations in the Third Era. Since it is the fourth and Skyrim seems to be the hot-spot with the Volkihar problems, then it would make sense for them to want to go there. Plus, we already have Movarth and his small coven.
But don't the order have a hold in skyrim? Specifically in solitude.
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Hope Greenhaw
 
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Post » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:58 am

But don't the order have a hold in skyrim? Specifically in solitude.
There is no mention of it in the game though. No quests relating to it.
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April
 
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