I'm using 7 for interiors, combat etc, but 9 for exteriors. The calories and thirst both will become 0% again faster if you add more to the multiplier. That's why I have 1,5 on both. However, I'm unsure if the satiation rate works the same way.

In the satiation, if you want to get full with less food, you just change it to <1.

Really? Thanks for the info. I'll change it to 0,5 right away


Edit: I've been thinking a bit about alcohol and caffeine in the game, as well as the spoilage system. I think our player should have a chance of becoming addicted to both caffeine and alcohol, if consumed in too great amounts over a course of days.

Food poisoning: Should count as a poison, not decease. Deaceases are way too easy to cure, shrines are everywhere.

And spoilage: More phases, instead of being 100% fresh, and suddenly spoiled. As the food reaches a certain amount of time, it has a chance to cause food poisoning. That chance rapidly increases as time goes by, until it is 100% . Then it becomes spoiled.

What do you think?

Can you introduce compatibility for feeding while in werewolf form ? Sorry if this has been asked before . Great mod !

I adore this mod. When combined with the hypothermia mod, Frostfall, it adds almost all of the gameplay-based tweaks that I feel I'd ever need.

However, after playing several hours with it (15+), I have noticed something:

The biggest issue is that I am ALWAYS thirsty. ALWAYS. In fact, it seems that I am thirsty from the moment I enable this mod; in all the time that I've played, I haven't really seen the negative modifer in the Powers menu ever go away. This creates a few issues:

1.) I play with the mortality ON (so you can starve and so forth). Because I am always "thirsty", and there isn't any modifer beyond that (nothing between, "Meh, I could use a drink" and "OMG DYING OF THIRST") it isn't immediately obvious when I all of sudden drop dead in the world. If I attempt to "save myself" by drinking something ahead of time, it doesn't work. I will still die, even if the Vitality Menu shows that I've already digested what I've drank.

2.) I feel like my character is getting water-logged. I can drink three or four 3-pound bottles of water over a game hour and it doesn't even put a dent in my thirst. I don't know about you, but that would make me sick as a dog. I can also stand in a river and drink repeatedly. None of these ever get rid of the thirsty modifier.

(( I'd suggest requiring players to drink only once from open sources like rivers, to simulate characters drinking until they are no longer thirsty. If it works this way already, the obviously there is a glitch that I need to run down in my own install. ))

I used a Fixed Timescale of 10 and a Global incrementer of 0.8. Hunger seems to work beautifully at this level, allowing me to have two large meals in the morning and evenings and it will pan out without turning my gameplay into a punishment grind.

Do you have any recommendations on what I could do to fix the Thirst issue?

I second the issue on the thirst being too draconian.

And still have my question from above that I'm waiting for an answer.

Have you guys tried pausing/disabling the mod, make a new clean save, quit and then installing the mod again? I wouldn't know what the cause would be. Unless you toggled god mode somewhere down the line, but even then I don't think that changes what it tracks.


Imp, do you have plans to change the sleep timer at all? Sleeping every 8 hours makes it feel like I'm being punished because I've been awake for 8 hours. Is it possible to alter this where 8 hours of sleep gives you the well-rested bonus and have the requirement of being awake capped higher?

I don't think it is broken just harsh. Also the instructions for the settings are not that accessible to understand. Which way reduced the thirst rate?

Yes I've clean saved this mod several times.

Drink often. Keep the value for thirst (the percentage in the parentheses) higher than 100. Your satiation will go down soon after you consume food and drink. Any time it is lower than 100%, eat or drink something with decent/high hydration. Usually, my thirst is in the 300+ range and I can go for a while. Same with hunger. A snack every now and then will keep you full enough without going over the satiation limit of being too full. It also helps with the protein bonus if you consume foods high with it. The settings to change values are multipliers. I think the higher you place the value, the stronger your food or drink is.

{edit} but if you're having a problem altogether, it's best if Imp gives you an answer.

Sorry for the delayed reply to questions about some of my suggestions. I didn't tag to follow this topic (fixed now) and I've been very busy with doctoral coursework and my own mod.

@BootySweat:

Rebuild Food Lists is one of the activities in the associated menu along with activating/deactivating (I believe it's that same menu... one of the three, anyway, the one with "actions"). Just be sure to rebuild the food lists if you add or remove any food mods so that they are always up to date.

@ ... well, several people, I guess.

It sounds to me like some people are having time scaling issues. I use the dynamic time scale in the mod and leave it at the default settings. I never have problems with thirst or hunger. In fact, it's way too lenient, especially on thirst. Water is far more critical for humans than food. You can last days without food. You will not last days without water.

I'd suggest checking your play by using the default time scale in the mod and avoid any outside time scale adjustments (i.e., other mods or console commands). Let the mod handle it. You may not be able to do this with a current save, of course. You may need a new game to test.

This is what I mean by not clear:
Or is it the rate of needing to eat ... or is it the rate of burning the fuel?

I'm doing a kind of fast right now and the recommendation is to drink 1/2 my weight in ounces every day to stay well hydrated. That actually isn't that much - since a glass of water is 10 oz - so a 200 pound man would need to drink 10 glasses of water in a day. The settings recommended here seem more rigorous.

It gets to the point that it detracts from game play by being more about constantly maintaining the character to not drop a few points here and there in stats.

As I said, I do not see what you are seeing. It would seem to be an issue with time scaling. You may have conflicts between IMCN and something else that touches time scale.

Imp took his info from a site that details nutrition requirements. Naturally, such info is based on averages and individual people, or even entire societies, may have different averages. I'm not sure how broad the site's data was when they created it.



In my game, I can eat a couple of potatoes and leeks in the morning and I'm fine until evening. I can drink at the same times and I'm fine. I'm not sure what could be accelerating your use except some type of time scale conflict or save game corruption.

Have you tried testing with a fresh, new game and the default dynamic time scale setting in the IMCN config menu?

Could be a difference in play style, the activity multiplier makes a big difference in your needs rates.

Do you usually fast travel or use carriages to get around? Do you frequently walk instead of run? How often do you get into combat? etc.

Fast travel has been shown to cause problems. Also, it avoids exploration, so I never use it. I never use carriages, either (and I believe some people have reported problems related to using them , too... these problems are related to creature and spawning, btw, not vanilla, as stuff like fast travel can mess up save game files).

I never walk... not even when I probably should do to dangerous ground.

I have combat more than many people, I imagine, since I have mods installed that greatly increase encounters (like 10-20 wolves in a wolf pack).

However, I do not change the default values, at least not yet. That's why I suggested testing with a new game using defaults. That's the only way to begin to track down the problem.

That's how I play as well, minus the heavily increased spawns - though I do a lot of dungeon diving, so I see a fair amount of combat. However my experience has been closer to Psymon's than yours, I have to eat and drink several times a day to avoid penalties.

I also play with the default needs rates, with the dynamic timescale at default settings, and I'm not using anything else that affects timescale. I've started several new characters and always had a the same experience.

Not sure what could account for the differences we are seeing.

My time scale is 10. I've tried with the basic generic settings.

While a new game may be informative for whether it happens in a clean vanilla load order that won't save the current (far more important playthrough) - save game corruption? Perhaps character state corruption more like it? It clean saves OK though.

Well this and http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1357444-relz-imps-more-complex-needs-2/page__view__findpost__p__20573632 I await word from IMP who I feel confident will return and have better info. (though I get this behavior when that other mod is not loaded too - I have to clean save it a lot).

This reminds me of http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1359739-relz-skyrim-mods-by-kuertee-thread-1/page__view__findpost__p__20634432 I need to make.

Psymon, there was a small conversation about imp's mod and Duke Patrick's mod working together, starting http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1353901-question-best-needs-mod/page__view__findpost__p__20411231. Most of the needs mods use stamina regen spells to give penalties and such. IMCN actually reduces the total stamina pool instead of using regen stuff, so DP's scripts and mechanics are not hurt, aside from your character having less total stamina during a fight when you are hungry. So you're gonna want to eat before a big fight and probably rest after the fight...

Major Bummer - well unless this kind of thing is made more compatible and/or the meanings of the settings in this mod made more clear then I'm just going to take this out.

Maybe Kuertee's new eat and sleep mod.

I really like this mod though.

[edit] wait that link seemed to indicate this was a good thing .... but perhaps this is what is causing the extreme need to consume.

[edit] So I went back and re read the readme again ... I set the timescale to dynamic (with default settings) and decreased the rate of hunger/thirst and increased the rate of food (I think what makes food last longer).

Right off I notice a 20 point drop in stamina from vanilla - I then eat to get stamina back - only regain 4 points. So, I check the status of the character and he has no sleep debt, Satiation is at 96%, well fed and not thirsty (all maintaining that balance).

So is there a stamina drain right off the bat?

my apologies, I seem to have forgotten the word NOT in the sentence, changing the meaning altogether. At the time I was looking into this stuff, it was the MOST compatible with DP. Kuertee's didn't exist at that point, so I don't know about hers.

Considering there are about 10 things in the mod that could decrease maximum stamina, it'd be hard to tell if nothing else is affecting you (morale, amount of calories eaten that day, etc). It could be that you ate enough to be satiated, but you didn't eat enough calories? Seeing as I haven't touched this mod since Feb, I don't remember how all of it works or how each piece is interrelated. :/

Clean saves are not a guarantee of fixing issues. This has become much more apparent through extensive testing of Automatic Variants and other mods. Even with clean saves and cell resets, there are a growing number of issues that can be traced to requiring a new game, and that any save game is simply corrupted. That might not be the case for yours, but please be aware of the possibility (and it really is sounding like it, at least if I understand you).

You also said your time scale is 10. Is that from IMCN, or did you set it in some other way? If the latter, simply do not do that anymore and let IMCN set it. I used to set mine to 10, too, but I stopped once I started using IMCN because I am paranoid about conflicts and unknown interactions. Call it too much experience with complex systems and chaos theory.

FYI, I never expect to maintain a game save that I have altered by removing, adding, or updating a mod, or even if I have made a change through official content (e.g., patches). When I posted this viewpoint on the AV thread, Leviathan (author of AV) said he agreed to some extent but that he felt we should have flexibility. My stance is that the system interactions are far too complex, so we have the flexibility to try to change things in midstream, but we certainly should not be surprised if things do not work afterwards. I just accept this in order to continue anolyzing Beth's games and others by other companies. Otherwise, I don't think I could continue.

Well I wholeheartedly don't agree with you. Not from the grounds of technically saying you are incorrect, but on the stance of who the hell wants to start a new game every time a mod update goes awry? Not me ... and I'd bet not many. I play long games - character that last 8 months or more. That is how I rolled with Oblivion .... and I see no reason to have a game as large as this be a 3 week adventure - that is what games like Batman and mass effect are for. I'm way over being an ever 10er.

Paranoia is not a trait I'm comfortable with - just give me the elevator to hell - I'm done worrying about whether it exists. The worst has already happened - move on. Further paranoia is not facts. It does tend to facilitate the a certain interpretation of them though.

If I can't get it to play right then forget the mod and if the game is broken beyond that then next game. Maybe by then modders will have ironed out the bugs enough so that mod updates aren't the end of the line. How anyone can stand doing that with Morrowind is beyond me.

love this mod....well done imp.
is spoilage working then or not working?

Well, for me it works. Also the Ice Crystal preserving works too. And it works with Bag of Holding! Yay! I'm going to try now and see if the preserving works with the Better Horses storage.

Oh and in case I didn't mention...I LOVE this mod! Thank you Imp!

Psymon, you don't seem to understand my point. What you have suggested as your approach is more or less what I was saying, at least if I understand your somewhat blunt reply. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you will play as you wish, including adding/removing plugins, patches, etc whenever you wish, and if the game becomes corrupted, so be it. If you get too frustrated with this happening, you will either stop adding/removing plugins, patches, etc or you will move on to another game.

If that I correct, that is what I have said, too. However, some of your posts about problems that you have been having do not seem to reflect this view.

As for how people play, it really doesn't matter. This is how software functions. Any software, not only games. New patches, let alone user plugins, can create problems that did not previously exist. Backwards compatibility is often not possible or even offered (consider the lack of backwards compatibility for console games, for example). Another example would be hardware drivers, especially video drivers. Surely you have heard advice to roll back drivers to prior versions, even reading or hearing this advice directly from the video card and driver makers? Even OSes have restore points made so that updates can be reversed. It's not unusual, and those examples are for official patches and plugins. User created content raises all sorts of other issues, after all.

I was only offering some helpful suggestions as to how to adapt so as to enjoy the game rather than become frustrated by something that is quite normal for any software (and even some hardware, for that matter). It's pointless to expect a game to continue to function if you continually change its structure. If you want it to continue to function, then play it without adding/removing official patches, DLC, user made plugins, etc. If you want to add/remove stuff, start a new game.

Seems pretty simple to me. Of course, each of us has freedom to do whatever we like. However, we don't have the right to blame Bethesda or various user content creators when things break due to our own actions.


Now, as far as the original series of posts about Psymon's issues (and perhaps other people's as well) ... it seems that there is some kind of confusion about the Rates settings or the ReadMe instructions. Is that the issue? I thought that the instructions were pretty clear, but I can try to help clarify anything specific that there might be a question about. I have started tweaking the various rates to give me the game play that I want, and I like ability to customize it so much a lot.

In general, the rates are multipliers for how fast the values change as time passes. Time passes at different rates depending on context, assuming you have dynamic time scales activated (but remember that the Dialogue value has not been implemented, at least according to the ReadMe). There is a global rate that changes all values across all contexts, and there are individual rate variables for specific values as well as specific activities.

"Hunger" is not really hunger as we usually think of it, though. Hunger in IMCN refers to "need for calories" (i.e., organic energy, basically). Satiation merely refers to how full you are. You can be satiated but still be hungry (i.e., still need calories) because you are in the process of digesting the calories you need.

I can try to elaborate, but I'm not sure what specific questions there are. One thing, though: if you are trying to tweak things, you might want to only change one variable and check the results. If you start changing multiple variables, the results may be confusing because of the complex interactions between them. You can change several at once, of course, but you have to be willing to deal with the results and not think that one or another variable is causing a specific change when it may simply be due to a chain reaction effect between several variables.

I really love this mod, but i have a problem when i run this mod with Lorecraft , when running both mods after some time (2 or 3 hours), IMCN starts to "slow down" and then stops working completely, got random CTD's and Lorecraft books sometimes don't work.
I tried clean saves, even running only LCcore+IMCN (in a fresh game install, without any other mod), but the problem persists and does not take long to happen, even saving takes longer (about 10s).

I can use LC or IMCN with others mods (Frostfall, UFO, etc) without any problems, but running both at same time destroys my save. =/

I've contacted the creator of lorecraft and he said that LC is lightly scripted and does not understand why both are conflicting ( I don't use LC cooking books, just the core and self made plugins).

I don't know if you could take a look at this, but anyway, your mod is awesome.