I guess they really nerfed archery then huh? I honestly haven't tried it much, I never liked the feel of it in this game.

The problem is: this is a roleplaying game with the motto "do what you want." One of the major schools of magic doesn't scale well. Short term "you'll need to play differently if you want to be a mage" may be sound advice, but longer term the solution is to fix destruction--whether that is done by Bethesda or by modders. Also, telling folks they need to diversify in order to be strong is two-edged advice in this game. It's great to level complementary skills, but you really need to be careful not to spread your perks too thin and not to outlevel your ability level in your primary damage-dealing skill.

In my experience it seemed that for the short time I was using Thunderbolt (expert) instead of Lightning Bolt (apprentice), Thunderbolt did the same amount of damage to a Frost Dragon as I would expect my Lightning Bolt to do and on everything else the damage on Thunderbolt actually was higher but not high enough for the magicka used to cast it. These numbers are when I'm wearing the Archmage's Robes and that's it.

My destruction is 88, I specialize in Electric (dragon souls take twice as long to absorb because of disintegrate, don't make my mistake) and the only perk I have left to get in Destro is Master Destro. My Thunderbolt says it does 90 damage at the cost of 81 magicka. My Chain Lightning does 60 damage and leaps at the cost of 36 magicka. My Lightning Bolt does 37 damage at the cost of 12 magicka.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that using Lightning Bolt will deal more damage per magicka than any of the other spells will, but that's not even the tip of the iceberg. Getting the perk Impact means my spells will stun, giving me crowd control and a much-needed edge. I have exactly 500 magicka right now, and if I dual-cast Thunderbolt I can only cast it twice before I'm waiting for magicka to regen. This means I have 2 stuns. Lightning Bolt however will let me cast ~15 times, meaning 15 stuns and since it's so low cost of magicka I only have to wait a second to regen enough to cast it again.

What I'm getting at here is that combining Impact with my Apprentice level Lightning Bolt is the most effective thing in the game for me to do. I can completely lock down dragons and kill them without them being able to breathe at all. I have no problem controlling combat when I'm being rushed by 5 or more enemies (still running away of course) and the only way I ever die is from being one-shot by an arrow, a two-handed weapon, or getting insta-executed.

IMO, Chain Lightning should cost 25 magicka and Thunderbolt should cost 50. I know I could wear full Destruction-enchanted gear to bring the magicka costs down and I'm afraid that's being forced upon me to see if I can even make use of my higher level spells.

Another thing I've noticed is that Destruction relies heavily on using other spell-perks to gain effectiveness. In Restoration I have perks to increase magicka regen and another to increase all spell's effectiveness against undead, which is pretty important since half of everything I kill is undead. Not only that but Illusion has the ability to make all spells cast silently, which is pretty important for doing anything with the Dark Brotherhood as a Destruction mage...

Please do. I'd like to know if my game is just going crazy.

The example spell is Flames. I know that it started as 8 damage. It's definitely 15 now.

You use conjuration for control. There are other control mechanisms. Things that seem less reliable but I'm experimenting with more of em. Fear, slow, stamina drain, magika drain effects. Enchanting and alchemy come into play here, yes you will have to ward for short periods of time and get in your enemy's face (guh, I HATE ward, it's so not good).

Start off with as much frost AoE as possible. When they close, pull out fear dagger+ward and apply a weakness to magic poison. Ward up, try to hit each enemy exactly once. If I did it right, at this point everything already has low stamina so I can just unleash ice storms towards their most likely escape path. (Later, blizzard+ice wall should do nicely)

It can be frustrating trying to do this from time to time if I've spawned 5+ mobs and one is too high level for my fear affect to take hold. Maybe at moments like this only I should be unleashing an atronauch, but to this point I haven't. Yes, frost is slower. Doesn't particularly matter when they're groveling on the floor. I usually have complete control in this way.

Interestingly, the Prima guide says that archers should indeed use their bows at all times (taking a few talents in block so that they can use those abilities to buy space) and not use melee weapons. I've not played an archer myself so I can't say whether that is good advice, but it is what the guide tells folks to do.

I'm really surprised to hear that, mine DEFINITELY does not level

Don't forget that different enemies have different resistances. Are you testing it on exactly the same enemy type?

The motto "Do what you want," doesn't translate to: "Play stupid, and the game will still be easy."

Again, play a character who only focuses on Archery. That's it. No stealth, no armor-specialization (you can wear it if you like, but no perks), no alchemy, no magic. Just bows.

It will not go well.

Destruction magic doesn't scale well with the games difficulty. Well it actually doesn't scale at all, but it's the bread and butter of a pure mage and as such should adapt as foes continue to grow in strength.

So you, OP don't know what you are talking about. Also, why couldn't this go in the previous thread? Oh right, grandstanding while blowing particles out your posterior is the internet pastime.

Ok, I went back to double-check everything.

I am not wearing any gear that increases magic damage. I have only taken mana-reduction perks in the Destruction tree. I am looking at the actual spell description, not measuring the damage.

My Flames spell, which used to read 8 points of damage now reads 18. My Firebolt spell which was 25 is now 35.

This could still potentially be a glitch or ghost-patch, but I'm absolutely sure of the numbers.

Don't get me wrong. Archers are awesome, but even with ebony arrows, poisons, high sneak perks (3X damage), and a bow that has 15 extra shock damage, you still need A) a companion to act as a meat shield, or sneaking in and shooting said boss usually at least 3 or 4 sneak attacks to take it down.

If you think you can just stroll in and start shooting any high level boss character with only Bow perks, no melee, and no companion, and not using sneak then you are going to get your ass handed to you multiple times, especially if there is more than one enemy. There is no way anyone can shoot fast enough to take down multiple enemies before one or 2 get to you and start cutting you down with 2H.

Another thing I noticed playing archer is the cheating AI. Many times when you are already in combat - not sneak attacking, when you shoot at the AI it will basically teleport outa the way. No I am not talking about mages, I am talking about any enemies. I regularly see enemy bandits and other monsters magically jump outa the way as my arrow is traveling towards them, which basically forces you to play as a sneak / archer, since it's the only way you are guarenteed to get hits.

Be that as it may, no-one's asking for a "how to" guide on playing as a mage. No-one has said mages are underpowered, just the Destruction skill. You've sort of confirmed that by mentioning how you need to rely on melee, poisons and Conjuration to get the job done, because Destruction is not powerful enough to function as a main method of direct damage, which is the only function of Destruction magic.


HOW MANY TIMES must this be said - no-one thinks you should be powerful with just one skill. No-one. Not a single person. This is a pointless comment that in no way addresses the concerns being raised. PLEASE STOP SAYING THIS.

The concern being raised is that Destruction, a skill whose ONLY purpose is to deal direct damage, is far less effective than other direct damage skills, like Archery and melee skills. It is even less effective as a damage skill than Conjuration, which has varied other purposes including crowd control and soul trapping. Therefore, Destruction is a redundant skill - it only has one purpose, and there are even other skills that carry out that purpose more effectively. What's the point in picking Skill A, which lets you do X, if you can just pick Skill B instead, which lets you do X and Y?

There are just TOO MANY points I can make that say mages overall are underpowered compared to warriors that I can write a book on it. Here are just a few

1. Destruction never gets stronger.

2. Mage spells are either too weak or cost too much mana to sustain in a fight.

3. Mage runs out of mana, has to run. Warrior runs out of stamina, continues to pound heavy damage.

4. Mages do less damage than warriors AND are 10-100x less durable in battle.

5. Master level destruction spells take 5 seconds to cast, cost too much mana, and don't get stronger after you get them at level 50 while monsters get stronger.

6. Warrior late game can have insanely strong legendary armor and weapons that do 500 damage per regular swing without power swing and tank like a god, mages have the 100 damage master spell that takes 5 seconds to cast when they are vulnerable.

7. Warriors can faceroll through the game with 2 skills and two hack buttons. Mages need to constantly switch spells, run around, drink potions, use shouts, use lydia, ect just to get by.

8. Robes with magic regen/cost reduction is nowhere near as good as the armor that makes warriors unstoppable late game.

9. Warriors with heavy armor and weapons can whip out their flame spell anytime and do as much damage as a mage while able to tank so much more, mages who want to fight with swords end up getting [censored].

10. I have yet to find a pure mage at any level able to complete the main quest line, I see warriors level 20ish complete it easily.

11. A TON of people complain about destruction being underpowered and mages in general compared to warriors. No one complains about warriors be underpowered, only overpowered.

12. This is a TES game. Players should be able to play how they want. If they want to focus on destruction without much help in other magic fields they should be able to do that. Game favors warriors heavily to faceroll through the game. Destruction is probably the most important school magic yet it is one of the more useless and full mages can't seem to do well with it without resorting to conjuration.

13. Full mages have to switch between 3-5 spells, conjure creatures, bring lydia, drink pots, hide behind obstacles shooting down enemies, scout the enemies well, before EVERY battle. It's fun on the first few battles but throughout the thousands of battles it becomes tedious and worthless. Warriors just charge into 10 men mobs without thinking and faceroll everything.

14. In even decently balanced games, warriors can always tank more damage while mages do much more damage and can nuke from afar. Mage destruction spells are mid-close range spells and can't nuke while warriors do more damage. In league of legends we see spell casters like ryze who die instantly and move slowly but can nuke so well and does more damage than tanks like malphite who are very hard to kill but barely do any damage. Imagine if malphite did more nuke damage than ryze. Who in their right mind would want to play ryze then? Everyone would want to play malphite. Same thing is going on here. People play the more balanced characters and like to play by what is better. This is an elder scrolls game and people should be able to play how they like but instead are forced to be melee or struggle through as a mage.

That's really strange, my spells have improved by only because of the perks. The other strange thing is those improvements are not linear either, so god knows what's going on there!

Flames starts at 6 damage, Firebolt at 25. Read into that what you will! I wish mine had done that

Using the console I raised my skills to 100

Steel dagger went from 8 damage to 11
Hunting bow went from 8 to 11
Flames spell went from 8 damage 13 magicka to 8 damage 8 magicka

Super huge thread, lots of anger and fireballs being tossed about, so just a few simple points with little opinion.

Mix it up. Is Destruction the king of everything? No., but if you can lock down an enemy via another avenue and thus be able to drop more spells on their face, go for it.
ex: I play magic/archery/thief style, pretty fairly mixed and while I can often one shot something with my bow or get in a 15x dagger attack, I have backup should the fight turn sour. Namely I keep a few cold spells handy so I can slow some people and get back to range.

Adjust yourself instead of demanding the game adjust itself. I've recently finished Dark Souls and let's be honest, the game is what the game is and if you don't like it, it just tells you to eff off. Now I know some people are frustrated/angry because they feel Skyrim isn't a 'be whatever you want' game when it was expressly stated it would be, but it sort of is. If i graduate from community college and want to get a job in investment banking, it's going to be much harder than had I attended the Wharton School of Business. If you want to spend your perks on alchemy and hair braiding, giants probably aren't going to give a shiat, that's what the difficulty slider is for, to adjust the game to your playstyle.

Stop whining. Nuff said.

Archer centric characters are still far stronger than destruction centric characters, why retort to a strawman?

Or you could do the actual equivalent of what people want to be able to do with destruction based mages. Which is use destruction instead of a bow and arrows, alteration instead of armour and restoration for an extra boost to health balancing.

So what you should be telling people to do is use a bow and arrow with perks relative to those selected, armour for extra defense and health potions for health balancing. Does that sound far fetched?

We use magic because its we find it fun. It is a game afterall. If its not fun for you, or you aren't willing to do what you have to to make it work, don't use magic.

why in the world are you using a steel dagger for scaling comparison. Use something like a daedra battle axe vs a legendary daedra battle axe with 40 bonus damage enchantment and see how that scales. Now compare a master level spell and see how that scales. Huge difference. And weapons don't need mana to use and don;t increase in the need for more stamina for power attacks. Stronger spells do to a point that weaker spells are a lot more efficient to use.

OK brainiac...

Now, play your archer with the fact that bows do not scale and you will need to take another dps tree to actually do the same dps that others can. Imagine your bow only doing a fraction of what a 1-hander would do even at 100 points in bows. Now imagine smart mouths constantly telling you to "lrn to play, nub".

This is what people are talking about. The concern is not having to take support skills, the concern is that destruction svcks.

Destruction svcks because it does not scale the same as other dps trees.

In the politest possible way..........would all you might types please resist the urge to comment until you've tried to play as a pure mage.........

That's all i have to say!

P.S. I mean on expert or master level too.....as a mage......

I was just showing the people who said your magic spells get stronger that they actually don't, they just use less magicka.

actually, you can enchant your gear so destruction magic doesn't cost any magicka at all... combine it with the impact perk and you're almost invincible