level 50 mage impressions : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:30 am

A question that I have to ask: What difficulty are you playng on?

Cough "While my 2 summons and companion".

Master with no companions or gtfo.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:50 am

I believe Bethesda did that on purpose. Since destruction magic is range based, it has an advantage over 1- and 2-handed close combat attacks. And, IMHO, destruction magic is much easier to use than archery. That is, it is much easier to hit the target. So Bethesda purposely weakend down the destruction magic, so it's not too easy for the player in the end to kill enemies with it. 1- and 2- handed weapons might deal more damage after all, but it's always close combat (so you get hit too, obviously). And archery, even though more powerful than destruction magic, is harder to use; harder to hit enemies with a bow.

If destruction magic ultimately would deal as much damage as archery and 1- and 2-handed weapons, in relation, it would be overpowered, because it is easier to hit the target with it than using a bow, and you don't get hit like melee based players. So they weakend the destruction magic down for balancing reasons.

I see your argument - also Destruction has area of explosion type benefits in some instances, but I'm not convinced it's as good as archery. Some of the archery perks are awesome - 50% slow time! How about that?

I do know what you mean though. Ultimately I agree with Sammu, in that Destruction can seem like an ultimately weak accompaniment to pretty much everything else that you can use to hurt people, directly or indirectly. This is a shame for me

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:42 am

I believe Bethesda did that on purpose. Since destruction magic is range based, it has an advantage over 1- and 2-handed close combat attacks. And, IMHO, destruction magic is much easier to use than archery. That is, it is much easier to hit the target. So Bethesda purposely weakend down the destruction magic, so it's not too easy for the player in the end to kill enemies with it. 1- and 2- handed weapons might deal more damage after all, but it's always close combat (so you get hit too, obviously). And archery, even though more powerful than destruction magic, is harder to use; harder to hit enemies with a bow.

If destruction magic ultimately would deal as much damage as archery and 1- and 2-handed weapons do, in relation, it would be overpowered, because it is easier to hit the target with it than using a bow, and you don't get hit like melee based players. So they weakend the destruction magic down for balancing reasons.

Balance is all fair enough, but the argument is that Destruction does nowhere near as much damage as Archery or melee, in fact so much less after perks that it's pretty much a redundant skill. Why would a mage bother with Destruction if they can just use the much more powerful Archery at no penalty? What's the point in Destruction as a skill at all, when it's so utterly outclassed by other similar skills? Archery and melee both have the potential to cause massive damage even to high-levelled enemies. Destruction does not.

And it's not like Destruction has any other function - Restoration heals, wards and repels undead; Conjuration summons pets, summons weapons and soul traps; Illusion affords Sneak capabilities and allows for crowd control; Alteration allows crowd control and affords defensive capabilities.

Destruction? Well, it deals damage... but FAR less than other damage-only skills, and it has no redeeming qualities to help balance the equation (I disagree that Archery is more difficult to hit with - EDIT: unless you mean Destruction spells like Flames or Sparks, which are admittedly easy to hit with, but are short-range enough that the user loses the distance benefit of magic). It even does less damage at high level than Conjuration, a skill that already gives several other powerful benefits, since summoned pets - get this - get stronger as the skill increases.

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:48 am

A lvl 20 with 100 one-handed does the same damage as a lvl 60 with 100 one-handed. The motivation to level your mage is to unlock different spell tiers and increase your magicka pool/regen.

If you wont use Enchatnting , Alchemy and Smithing.But you can as warrior/thief, it will improve your damage.
As mage you cant use them to improve your damage.
It is motivating for warriors/thieves to increased these crafting skill, they will be very rewarding.
For mage they are not.
I will say it again, magicka regen has nothing to do with destruction being lame.

» Sat May 12, 2012 12:54 pm

He specifically said he hasn't taken any perks...

I was just about to respond to that one.

Thanks.

Now, if the game was ghost-patched, that's fine. But since I haven't heard anything about that, I'm assuming that my leveling Destruction is what caused the jump in damage.

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:28 am

If you wont use Enchatnting , Alchemy and Smithing.But you can as warrior/thief, it will improve your damage.
As mage you cant use them to improve your damage.
It is motivating for warriors/thieves to increased these crafting skill, they will be very rewarding.
For mage they are not.
I will say it again, magicka regen has nothing to do with destruction being lame.

For the record alchemy creates potion that can increase both melee and magic damage. But crafting on mage is contraproductive, because the perks spent and the levels gained don't justify the survivability buff. Not on low levels at least.

Edit : Armor crafting I ment.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:55 pm

If you wont use Enchatnting , Alchemy and Smithing.But you can as warrior/thief, it will improve your damage.
As mage you cant use them to improve your damage.
It is motivating for warriors/thieves to increased these crafting skill, they will be very rewarding.
For mage they are not.
I will say it again, magicka regen has nothing to do with destruction being lame.

What about putting elemental weakness poisons or something on arrows? You could weaken then blast away with greater effect? Maybe give your companion an enchanted blade that weakens? I would try a few different things.

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:37 am

I was just about to respond to that one.

Thanks.

Now, if the game was ghost-patched, that's fine. But since I haven't heard anything about that, I'm assuming that my leveling Destruction is what caused the jump in damage.

If that's happened, I'll be delighted. It seems pretty unlikely, though. Are you absolutely sure you're not looking at different spells? Stupid question I know, but I'm 99% sure that hasn't happened on my game.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:19 pm

Actually, math = probability, not fact. Check Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and other areas of modern theoretical physics. The idea that math and "fact" are objective and absolute is precisely why so much quantitative research fails in real life contexts.

1 + 1 = 2. Or is there a random probability that 1 + 1 could in fact = 102? D&D dice rolls do of course have an element of randomization so working out exactly what the roll will be is impossible. You can however work out the mean of a possible dice roll or work out the highest/lowest values because you know what values go into the equation in the first place. This isn't some crackpot [censored] theory, it's a fact that has had countless physics theories based upon it

Edit:

Oh and this isn't real life with an infinite number of possibilities, it's a game based on calculated and controlled algorithms

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:59 pm

I guess we all have to play this game your way to be effective with magic, so much for freedom, thanks Bethesda.

And so I also guess that later on in this game a big chunk of your spells are actually been made neglectable, oh goodies

You don't have to play it "his way", but you have to play intelligently.

Just because Bethesda wants this to be a game where you can make choices and roleplay doesn't mean every single option needs to be as viable as the other options. If I want to roleplay as a Smooth talking pickpocket who dabbles in restoration of course I'm not going to be as powerful as a warrior, an archer, or someone who utilizes other schools of magic.

Not every character needs to be equally as powerful.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:32 pm

I was just about to respond to that one.

Thanks.

Now, if the game was ghost-patched, that's fine. But since I haven't heard anything about that, I'm assuming that my leveling Destruction is what caused the jump in damage.

My bad, I jumped to conclusions. That seems interesting. Is it possible that damage does scale with level but is somehow bugged?

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:30 am

What about putting elemental weakness poisons or something on arrows? You could weaken then blast away with greater effect? Maybe give your companion an enchanted blade that weakens? I would try a few different things.

Poisons and potions are not an adequate alternative to enchantments and Smithing buffs. They are short-term, and require lengthy and unreliable item-hunting to gather the ingredients.

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:09 am

As these "pure destr" mages seem unable to use staffs when their magicka runs out, they should really be comparing themselves to a warrior with no weapon imo

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:54 am

If that's happened, I'll be delighted. It seems pretty unlikely, though. Are you absolutely sure you're not looking at different spells? Stupid question I know, but I'm 99% sure that hasn't happened on my game.

I'm absolutely sure I'm looking at the right spells. The Novice spells jumped from 8 to 15, and the Apprentice spells jumped from 25 to 35.

Now, I'm still willing to accept that I missed a really minor patch to damage, but I think it also may just be that the damage increases in a leap as you level Destruction 10 points or so. I'll keep watching to see what happens.

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:18 am

One thing I have noticed when playing.

You have to specialize with your skills, if you try and take perks from everywhere at the start you get trumped quickly. Destruction has to be used with something yes.....but the choices aren't there, you can be cowardly and use summons constantly, or you can hide in the shadows and use illsuion in between destruction spells......but destruction on it own just gets you killed....and here is the problem....

Playing any sort of mage you either have to uses summons or hide, in order to play. The defensive options aren't there, nor can you get the fire-power to kill things quickly enough.

That is a stupid argument. You think playing destruction only should make you able to kill anything? That's like saying if I put all my points in Bow I should have no problems. I like playing archer characters, but there is no way you can use only "BOW", at some point you need to melee even if you have every Bow perk there is.

It is the same for a lot of different character routes, there is only one route I can think of that would allow you to go with only 1 attack, that being 2 hander.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:21 am

The thing I love about all these threads on this topic is this.... The people who post that a warrior has to use heavy armour and a shield therefore mages should use conjuration and alteration. Those things are completely different. When a warrior equips armour it doesn't take away a third of his stamina and even if it did you don't need stamina to attack as a warrior. When a mage casts a shield spell it takes away from his ability to attack and he has to run around like a fool until his magicka fills up again.

Warriors don't NEED anyone else to help them, archers don't NEED anyone else to help them. Why do mages need someone else to help them fight? It's not about a mage dying, it's about a mage not being able to attack unless he/she uses every single skill out there. Playing a mage in this game seems more like a chore than an adventure.

My opinion: I don't have one, I haven't advanced far enough in the game for it to be a problem. Maybe it will never become a problem for me but I at least see the complaint some people have.

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:26 am

I feel magic is an incredibly viable and powerful path to take. Dual cast stagger perk as well as damage increase perk for lightning and half magicka requirement perk for whatever tier of magic you'll be using. I've found just dualcasting lightning bolts due to them being instant so less chance to miss due to movement compared to fire/ice is incredibly successful. Even if I only do 1/10th of the opponents health in damage I always stagger them, no matter if it's a giant or a dragon or what have you. So single opponents never even get close to me. And stagger duration is usually long enough for me to keep 2-3 opponents staggered all at the same time. So it is rare for me to clear a dungeon and have anything get close to me, much less hit me. I play at standard difficulty(Adept I believe) so your mileage may vary. However, this style has worked for me 1-40 in every dungeon I've cleared.

Equipment: Archmage Robe for reduced cost, magicka regen and increased magicka.
Morokei Mask for magicka regen
Ring of Emminent Destruction -20% reduced cost for destruction spells

Also depending on your playstyle you might wanna try out Apprentice Stone/Atronach Stone.

Should be added: I don't have to use anything besides offensive Destruction spells in combat to stay alive simply due to enemies not being able to hit me. Sure it involves dodging arrows/spells and hiding behind corners sometimes but I have never felt a need to use defensive spells/conjuration spells to help me stay alive.

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:33 am

I'm absolutely sure I'm looking at the right spells. The Novice spells jumped from 8 to 15, and the Apprentice spells jumped from 25 to 35.

Now, I'm still willing to accept that I missed a really minor patch to damage, but I think it also may just be that the damage increases in a leap as you level Destruction 10 points or so. I'll keep watching to see what happens.

I take it you haven't purchased a perk that enhances damage for a given element?

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:44 pm

The thing I love about all these threads on this topic is this.... The people who post that a warrior has to use heavy armour and a shield therefore mages should use conjuration and alteration. Those things are completely different. When a warrior equips armour it doesn't take away a third of his stamina and even if it did you don't need stamina to attack as a warrior. When a mage casts a shield spell it takes away from his ability to attack and he has to run around like a fool until his magicka fills up again.

Warriors don't NEED anyone else to help them, archers don't NEED anyone else to help them. Why do mages need someone else to help them fight? It's not about a mage dying, it's about a mage not being able to attack unless he/she uses every single skill out there. Playing a mage in this game seems more like a chore than an adventure.

My opinion: I don't have one, I haven't advanced far enough in the game for it to be a problem. Maybe it will never become a problem for me but I at least see the complaint some people have.

I'd like you to try playing a character who only uses bows and only takes perks in the Archery tree. You can use armor if you like, but no perks allowed. No stealth. No anything else. Just bows.

Tell me how it goes for you.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:15 am

Master with no companions or gtfo.

Ok, so unless you play on the highest difficulty and intentionally make your character weaker your experiences/opinions mean nothing....ok

Master with Speechcraft/Pickpocket/Alteration/Restoration as main skills and no companions or gtfo.

See, I can do it too and it is just as stupid as when you said it. You can't complain that you are doing poorly on the hardest difficulty if you are intentionally not using your character to its fullest potential. Sure you can RP a destruction only mage, but don't expect to be as powerful as someone who isn't roleplaying a destruction only mage and is using all of the magic schools.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:00 am

What about putting elemental weakness poisons or something on arrows? You could weaken then blast away with greater effect? Maybe give your companion an enchanted blade that weakens? I would try a few different things.

IT IS POSSIBLE to play pure destro solo on master.
It is not the point.
The point is, we cant bust our damage (atleast we cant bust damage permanently), we cant create any new spells and we are forced to use lame weak "default" spells.
The Elder Scrolls was always about of freedom of choice, now if you are playing mage you cant choose anything.
We need spellmaking to return.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:20 am

A lvl 20 with 100 one-handed does the same damage as a lvl 60 with 100 one-handed. The motivation to level your mage is to unlock different spell tiers and increase your magicka pool/regen.

A lvl 20 with 100 one-handed will be barely using Dwarven or maybe Orcish weapons. At lvl 60 no doubt you'd be using a highly enchanted random daedric weapon loot or some high quality daedric artefact weapon or some leveled quest reward weapon.

On the other hand, the lvl 20 with 100 destruction mage probably already unlocked and bought the master spells since their availability in merchants seems to be simply linked to your skill.

Edit : Oh and I forgot. At level 60, the warrior will probably have finished switching all his jewelry to random damage bonus enchanted loots that don't exist for magic spells anyway.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:17 am

Warriors don't NEED anyone else to help them, archers don't NEED anyone else to help them. Why do mages need someone else to help them fight? It's not about a mage dying, it's about a mage not being able to attack unless he/she uses every single skill out there. Playing a mage in this game seems more like a chore than an adventure.

.

Try taking your archer only character with no melee skills and killing any end quest boss (without using any sneak, since you said archer only) and let me know how that goes.

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:08 pm

I take it you haven't purchased a perk that enhances damage for a given element?

Apparently it's un-perked. I'll definitely be checking this out when I get home from work, it sounds very promising (and would certainly take a lot of the wind out of my sails

)

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:56 am

My typical battle:

Me and my hired mercenary stroll in. There is a whole heap of enemies up ahead. I call forth 2 summons. While my 2 summons and companion are up ahead fighting I DO NOT use novice level spells but instead use *gasp* expert level spells and cause immense damage. My magic regains ridiculously fast and I am quickly able to call forth thunderstorm. I will then use the remainder of the time casting smaller spells or resummoning. I don't sit there and throw novice level spells around. They are novice level for a reason. Should all of those fail. As a mage I have gathered many essential scrolls and potions as well as enchanted my Blade (which I carry around for extra protection just in case). My enchanted blade does not do very much on its own because of my low skill with 1H weapons but I've enchanted it with a powerful thunder enchantment and another with frost that hit like trucks.

Aside from that I have multiple protective spells from both restoration and alteration as well as the mage armor perk.

The arguement that magic is not strong is virtually pointless. At level 50 I am extremely powerful.

People who should not be allowed to speak on the subject:
-Someone who does not have experience playing a level 40+ mage

-Someone who restricts themselves for roleplaying purposes (I will never use a blade because I am a thunder mage and will only use lightning and will never use any other types of magic. Well I think my feety pajama wearing pillow fighter should also be a viable option and just as powerful as a fully clad warrior, but alas)
If you are going to restrict yourself and roleplay feel free to do so. But it should not be just as easy for someone who only uses destruction and neglects other skills.

-Someone who is attempting to use novice level spells past level 40. Novice level spells are for novices. You are not a novice. Use expert level spells.

I can say from first hand experience I have had next to zero trouble with the game. Yet I also don't go under some preconcieved mage notion. I have a sword in my inventory if I need it and many enchanted daggers. I'v put points into health and I do whatever it takes to survive.

If you are going to literally shirk all of the options handed to you then the game should be hard on you.

Really? You're honestly going counter the argument that Mage's aren't viably strong because you're level 50 mage is? Along with the fact that you use 2 summoned creatures and a companion to do all of your fighting for you? Even more asinine, your comment that someone must have a mage that has reached at least level 40 for their argument to be valid. By the time someone reaches level 40, a core percentage of game content will have more than likely already been experienced. If that were the case, why would it matter how "strong" you are then? Why should a Mage be forced to summon creatures in order to survive? Should they not have the ability to wield extremely powerful magic to defeat foes from a distance. Is that not the entire premise of a "Mage?"

There is no "people who should not be allowed to speak" on ANY subject, as this is a FORUM, deliberately designed to share opinions.

If you're going to sound like a babbling idiot, then that's probably what people are going to assume you are. <_<