level 50 mage impressions

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 9:48 am

On top of what everyone else has argued, the point is that Destruction shouldn't be flat out comparible to weapon skills. Mages can use conjuration to summon a creature that 1) acts as their armor and 2) attacks while acting as armor. So add your own destruction magic to the mix, you have two sources of attacks with one acting as a damage sponge. Warriors can only use one weapon at a time (or dual wield) - they can't shoot a bow and swing a two hander at the same time.

Destruction plus Conjuration is far weaker than 1h/2h/bow plus Conjuration. Your argument is not taking that into consideration.
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vicki kitterman
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:08 pm

Play without using conjuration? sure i'll go play a warrior without a shield too. That'll be fun. Conjuration is always a staple of being a true mage. You need something to block for you and to try to play with only destruction is like trying to play a warrior without armor. You make it difficult for yourself. Its fine.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. What has conjuration got to do with armour? The mage equivalent to armour is alteration spells. Conjuration is the equivalent of a warrior having a companion. They're magical companions.

How arrogant do you need to be to decide that to be a 'true mage' you need to use conjuration? Why? Why can't I use destruction as offense, alteration as defense and restoration to support me throughout a battle? Plus if destruction magic actually had any power to it I'd be able to use ranged spells to keep distance between myself and he enemy and this then negates the need for conjured meat shields.

You are failing to see that there should be more tan one way to play a mage. A warrior doesn't have to have a shield. He could go two handed with heavy armour and still be super effective. You could also go one handed with a shield and light armour or go the thief route and use a dagger and no armour.

There are multiple powerful routes you can take for melee play but only one route you can take as a mage. THAT IS STUPID.

There we go, I guess I'm now the most intelligent person on this forum...
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Betsy Humpledink
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 12:51 am

After trying out a 50 mage I realised that the only way you could get to 50 is if you maxed the entire mage branch and alchemy. So I decided to play a Destro Mage with just destruction and Enchanting to see how that scaled.

I went here. I haven't beat the game so I don't know if this is a hard dungeon or not.
[img]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007846710/screenshot/648745380544209762[/img]

This is how I perked my Woodelf.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545642533/C7ABEE097F4B7C1F2963815B6BB722D4812D03D3/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636510/630C01969235431ECBF584BC954E3135171C59D8/[/img]

Here's my gear.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545729817/892B76C2B03CC942254D1F94D226F3D92DA4F37B/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545728880/CA6F5DEBB2D2B6E20FF5655CA0D55E98F9C95EF2/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545728427/4472ED1BC12AC424F48C20EEE68DD6D7BEE3DD98/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545729307/38AA9B3118F455F3CA5CAE47AE9818459585FC0A/[/img]

I only used Incinerate, Fireball, Healing, Chain Lightning, Ice Spike, and Ice Storm.

This time I only had 1 Draugr Deathlord in this area, the other 3 were Wight, Scourge, and a restless Draugr.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545640160/DFCAA369629339E4DD882B00FE0DF4C007702B08/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545644025/044DBC11B70B6EE65B41917BD34E091CC70824E5/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545640644/65285AEF985B4320DFA0DD2B809D4B458357E011/[/img]

Draugr Deathlords go down in about 15 hits from Chain Lightning. Wight 5. Restless 3. Scourge 11.
Fireball Deathlord 8, Wight 5, Restless 2, Scourge 6
Ice Spike Wight 8, Restless 4
I didn't do the other two because it took too many hits without any aoe behind it to stagger all of them.

I then fought the boss of the dungeon.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545634342/B6CA4AD63B1FC04F3C55FC797BDFB78BF4C06F2F/[/img]

He died in a couple of Fireball hits.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545641594/5650B40C4F0E29BDF7F23386BEB74D85A34DE0C4/[/img]

I thought that seemed too easy so I killed two giants instead. They died in 12 hits from Fireball.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636069/53DB768044E27CF967638FD4A9A74DAAEE3FD661/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545642038/4174AEA263329CC81BD0AA98FC9A0DBB79F73824/[/img]

Then I killed their mammoth friends too! They also died in 12 hits from Fireball.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545643490/CFF09F42DB6A4BE66E2DF8788025F14F1DF49C9B/[/img]


After trying this it seems that the element you choose makes a big difference. What with Deathlords going down after only 8 hits from Fireball as opposed to 15 from Chain Lightning amd seeming to take little damage from Ice Spike.


Edit: Forgot to mention this was on master difficulty.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636970/F20E3FD251A45F43501BA59E0877718EB938B098/[/img]
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emily grieve
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:55 pm

Destruction plus Conjuration is far weaker than 1h/2h/bow plus Conjuration. Your argument is not taking that into consideration.

Indeed. Anyway, this has all gone way too far!

Destruction isn't THAT bad, it's just not a particularly valuable skill at higher levels relative to others. It's also a shame about Magicka regen, but I'm still enjoying the game, so onwards and upwards!
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Kaley X
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:54 pm

If destruction was changed to the way some people want it, mages would then become OP. I don't see the balance issue here. Sure warriors can wear heavy armour and constantly swing their weapons without stamina at all, but they can't summon minions, throw up wards, conjure weapons and armour, become invisible, turn enemies on each others, detect enemies from a distance etc. all at the snap of their fingers. I'd say it's fairly balanced, but that's just MY OPINION.

I also laugh because people would complain about modern games being too easy, and I certainly heard complaints that Oblivion was too easy in comparison to Morrowind. Now that the difficulty has increased, other people are mad because they can't win on the highest difficulty. Perhaps some of them are even the same people.
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Genevieve
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 10:48 am

So to be a "true" warrior i have to master one handed,two handed, block, archery and heavy armor?
:facepalm:
And yeah, i see now you dont have a clue what role playing means.
No, but you must master one handed, block, and heavy armor. If you master one handed and nothing else, you would be [censored], correct?
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Marina Leigh
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:52 pm

After trying out a 50 mage I realised that the only way you could get to 50 is if you maxed the entire mage branch and alchemy. So I decided to play a Destro Mage with just destruction and Enchanting to see how that scaled.

I went here. I haven't beat the game so I don't know if this is a hard dungeon or not.
[img]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007846710/screenshot/648745380544209762[/img]

This is how I perked my Woodelf.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545642533/C7ABEE097F4B7C1F2963815B6BB722D4812D03D3/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636510/630C01969235431ECBF584BC954E3135171C59D8/[/img]

Here's my gear.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545729817/892B76C2B03CC942254D1F94D226F3D92DA4F37B/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545728880/CA6F5DEBB2D2B6E20FF5655CA0D55E98F9C95EF2/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545728427/4472ED1BC12AC424F48C20EEE68DD6D7BEE3DD98/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545729307/38AA9B3118F455F3CA5CAE47AE9818459585FC0A/[/img]

I only used Incinerate, Fireball, Healing, Chain Lightning, Ice Spike, and Ice Storm.

This time I only had 1 Draugr Deathlord in this area, the other 3 were Wight, Scourge, and a restless Draugr.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545640160/DFCAA369629339E4DD882B00FE0DF4C007702B08/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545644025/044DBC11B70B6EE65B41917BD34E091CC70824E5/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545640644/65285AEF985B4320DFA0DD2B809D4B458357E011/[/img]

Draugr Deathlords go down in about 15 hits from Chain Lightning. Wight 5. Restless 3. Scourge 11.
8 Fireball 5 2 6
Ice Spike 8 4
I didn't do the other two because it took too many hits without any aoe behind it to stagger all of them.

I then fought the boss of the dungeon.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545634342/B6CA4AD63B1FC04F3C55FC797BDFB78BF4C06F2F/[/img]

He died in a couple of Fireball hits.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545641594/5650B40C4F0E29BDF7F23386BEB74D85A34DE0C4/[/img]

I thought that seemed too easy so I killed two giants instead. They died in 12 hits from Fireball.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636069/53DB768044E27CF967638FD4A9A74DAAEE3FD661/[/img]
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545642038/4174AEA263329CC81BD0AA98FC9A0DBB79F73824/[/img]

Then I killed their mammoth friends too! They also died in 12 hits from Fireball.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545643490/CFF09F42DB6A4BE66E2DF8788025F14F1DF49C9B/[/img]


After trying this it seems that the element you choose makes a big difference. What with Deathlords going down after only 8 hits from Fireball as opposed to 15 from Chain Lightning amd seeming to take little damage from Ice Spike.


Edit: Forgot to mention this was on master difficulty.
[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636970/F20E3FD251A45F43501BA59E0877718EB938B098/[/img]

As before, epic post! Really good research. 12 hits on a mammoth actually seems pretty bloody powerful - I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing wrong because mine take a lot more than 12!!!
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Unstoppable Judge
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:59 am

No, but you must master one handed, block, and heavy armor. If you master one handed and nothing else, you would be [censored], correct?
You dont even understand what i and other people complaining about.

Warrior/Thief have motivation to lvl up, warrior for instanse need 5 skills mastered minimum: 1 weapon skill, 1 armor skill and 3 craftings skills that improve his weapon DAMAGE and his ARMOR RATING, combined together these skill works in synergy. Thief need even more.
Mages hower benefit ONLY from alchemy and ONLY from 1 TYPE OF POTION (bust of destruction damage ,we are talking about destro mages here.)
If you want play pure destro mage, you need to master destruction and enchanting, because if you will lvl up futher you damage output WILL NOT IMPROVE, but the mobs WILL BECOME STRONGER.
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Solina971
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 3:43 pm

So to be a "true" warrior i have to master one handed,two handed, block, archery and heavy armor?
:facepalm:
And yeah, i see now you dont have a clue what role playing means.
Yes
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Steven Nicholson
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:32 pm

As before, epic post! Really good research. 12 hits on a mammoth actually seems pretty bloody powerful - I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing wrong because mine take a lot more than 12!!!


What difficulty setting was this test done at. Anything below master is effectively meaningless.
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Mr. Allen
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 2:45 am

You dont even understand what i and other people complaining about.

Warrior/Thief have motivation to lvl up, warrior for instanse need 5 skills mastered minimum: 1 weapon skill, 1 armor skill and 3 craftings skills that improve his weapon DAMAGE and his ARMOR RATING, combined together these skill works in synergy. Thief need even more.
Mages hower benefit ONLY from alchemy and ONLY from 1 TYPE OF POTION (bust of destruction damage ,we are talking about destro mages here.)
If you want play pure destro mage, you need to master destruction and enchanting, because if you will lvl up futher you damage output WILL NOT IMPROVE, but the mobs WILL BECOME STRONGER.
There is no such thing as a "destruction mage" unless you are roleplaying, and if you are roleplaying you are gimping yourself by default, so there is no point in arguing. This point has been brought up time and time again yet nobody acknowledges it. I wonder why.

OK, well if you want to play as a "destruction mage", then I want to play as a "one handed warrior". The only skill I'm going to focus on is one handed. No armor or block. I'm also going to play the game on master difficulty. Now I'm going to complain when I am unable to do anything at all. Again, ths example has been used, yet nobody addresses it, I wonder why?

(Hint, because it proves you wrong, so you ignore it.)
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Kat Lehmann
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:06 am

As before, epic post! Really good research. 12 hits on a mammoth actually seems pretty bloody powerful - I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing wrong because mine take a lot more than 12!!!


Well like I said, I am using console commands so it's possible the level scaling doesn't work properly with it? Anyone know whether or not this is an issue?
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Brittany Abner
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 5:07 am

To get the uber-warrior, you have to master enchanting and smithing as well. So arguing with roleplaying is quite pointless as the typical warrior wouldn't even think about enchanting.
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Solène We
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:49 am

What difficulty setting was this test done at. Anything below master is effectively meaningless.

It was on master.

[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636970/F20E3FD251A45F43501BA59E0877718EB938B098/[/img]

I also did a level 50 mage on master difficulty. The results are on page 4.
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Mariana
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 9:55 am

There is no such thing as a "destruction mage" unless you are roleplaying, and if you are roleplaying you are gimping yourself by default, so there is no point in arguing. This point has been brought up time and time again yet nobody acknowledges it. I wonder why.

OK, well if you want to play as a "destruction mage", then I want to play as a "one handed warrior". The only skill I'm going to focus on is one handed. No armor or block. I'm also going to play the game on master difficulty. Now I'm going to complain when I am unable to do anything at all. Again, ths example has been used, yet nobody addresses it, I wonder why?

(Hint, because it proves you wrong, so you ignore it.)
1. Read my previous post.
2. Try to understand it.
If you dont understand it, repeat step 1.
Make 10 loops. If you still wont understand that i am talking about, just believe me.
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Queen
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 10:47 am

It was on master.

[img]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/648745380545636970/F20E3FD251A45F43501BA59E0877718EB938B098/[/img]

I also did a level 50 mage on master difficulty. The results are on page 4.

Thanks then, this data is very helpful. I am starting to wonder however if there is a bug in the game that causes improper spell scaling, because my maxed out destruction mage at level 40ish is not experiencing this at all. Mobs take a LOT more than 3-10 spells to kill.
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Farrah Lee
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 1:23 pm

My typical battle:

Me and my hired mercenary stroll in. There is a whole heap of enemies up ahead. I call forth 2 summons. While my 2 summons and companion are up ahead fighting I DO NOT use novice level spells but instead use *gasp* expert level spells and cause immense damage. My magic regains ridiculously fast and I am quickly able to call forth thunderstorm. I will then use the remainder of the time casting smaller spells or resummoning. I don't sit there and throw novice level spells around. They are novice level for a reason. Should all of those fail. As a mage I have gathered many essential scrolls and potions as well as enchanted my Blade (which I carry around for extra protection just in case). My enchanted blade does not do very much on its own because of my low skill with 1H weapons but I've enchanted it with a powerful thunder enchantment and another with frost that hit like trucks.

Aside from that I have multiple protective spells from both restoration and alteration as well as the mage armor perk.

The arguement that magic is not strong is virtually pointless. At level 50 I am extremely powerful.

Cool story bro. Too bad reading comprehension should be a requirement before entering debates such as this. The argument was never that "Magic" was weak in this game, only that Destruction by itself svckS, and it does. Notice the very first thing you start with is two summons. Good job on already trivializing any encounter. It's easy enough with just one summons alone. That has nothing to do with Destruction or your own damage at all. The fight would have ended in about the same speed as if you had not cast anything at all, but keep on patthing yourself on the back, thinking you actually contributed anything. Your pets did all of the work.
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Philip Lyon
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:06 am

1. Read my previous post.
2. Try to understand it.
If you dont understand it, repeat step 1.
Make 10 loops. If you still wont understand that i am talking about, just believe me.


Well to be fair, Alteration does seem to have a buff that reduces the amount of physical damage you take by 80%. That would definitely help with survivability.
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Monika Fiolek
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 12:59 am

Well to be fair, Alteration does seem to have a buff that reduces the amount of physical damage you take by 80%. That would definitely help with survivability.
Where am i talking about survivability? Whats wrong with you people?!
God i am tied...20 lvl mage with 100 destruction have THE SAME damage that 60 lvl carater with 100 destruction.
You think it is normal?!
Think again then.
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Prue
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 3:21 pm

Where am i talking about survivability? Whats wrong with you people?!
God i am tied...20 lvl mage with 100 destruction have THE SAME damage that 60 lvl carater with 100 destruction.
You think it is normal?!
Think again then.

That would be because they both mastered destruction... I don't recall the last time gaining a level increased damage at all...

EDIT: The difference being that the lvl 60 character would have other skills leveled to back it up. Otherwise they wouldn't be lvl 60.
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Vickey Martinez
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 4:40 pm

To be honest it really hasn't taken a back seat to anything. At lower levels I relied on a fire atronach because I didn't have the mana to spam my spells that much, but after getting my first apprentice level destruction spell I haven't had issues killing anything I wasn't too underleveled for.

The main thing people don't realize is that unlike Oblivion, the vast majority of enemies aren't scaled to your level. This means that if something is too hard, it's generally not because archetype is too weak but rather you're just too low of a level.

Edit: i don't mean to bash any of you hardcoe roleplaying types, but when have you ever seen a wizard in any novel, movie, or pen-and-paper game that could only throw fireballs and didn't get slaughtered at some point? All those harry potter wizards opened locks, used light spells, teleported etc; Gandalf used his staff to beat people just as much as he used spells; wizards in dungeons and dragons are used almost entirely for their adaptability with utility spells; hell, even Willow used sleight of hand to confuse his enemies.

Not really a valid argument when you consider all you need is a single Dremora Lord to beat most of the game and with nothing else ever. Physical damage users can also craft weapons that are FAR ABOVE what is required to kill things at their level, so they can take on enemies at a much higher level than the damage Destruction can put out.
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Kayla Keizer
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Simply amazed at how badly you're missing the point. No-one has said Conjuration, Alteration or Illusion are underpowered. The issue is that Destruction, as a DIRECT-damage magic school, is vastly underpowered by comparison to the other (non-magic) DIRECT-damage skills - namely, Archery, 1-handed and 2-handed weapons. Completely ignore support magic for a moment, and consider the following scenario.

Character A has full, perked Heavy Armour. Therefore he is defensively in good shape. For attack, he uses a fully-perked battleaxe, with +damage enchantments.
Character B has full, perked Heavy Armour. Therefore he is defensively in good shape. For attack, he uses Destruction magic, with -magicka cost enchantments.

Character A will do a HUGE amount more damage than Character B. This is cold, simple and pure fact. Read the following:



THIS is why people are complaining. Not because mages are underpowered, because as you say, they can complement their playstyle with several other useful skills, like Conjuration, Sneak, One-handed, Archery, with whatever the hell they want. The ISSUE, and the reason the game is unbalanced in favour of melee and archery, is that Destruction does FAR LESS damage than the other DIRECT damage skills in the game. Whether or not other spell schools make up the difference is completely irrelevant, seeing as any character, mage, warrior or thief, can also take those skills. The simple fact is that Destruction falls far behind as a direct-damage skill; for that reason, if you want to play as a pure mage, you are FORCED to focus on indirect damage (see: Conjuration) or to stop being a pure mage by focussing on other means of direct damage (see: Archery, melee weapons).

The (very simple) solution is as follows:



The extra "exploitative" damage achievable through Enchanting and Smithing could be balanced by introducing +Destruction damage/spell effectiveness/duration enchantments, which could then be stacked to make Destruction have the same sort of damage potential as Archery or melee.

Finally, please don't argue "I've played as a level 50 mage and I'm fine, so you're all wrong." This is a completely moot point unless you've also played as a level 50 warrior or assassin, at which point you would realise how much more powerful melee and Archery are.
I see the point you are trying to make, but it is incorrect. You explained it your self. Warriors have three ways to deal damage: one handed, two handed, and archery. In my opinion, you would only ever choose either one handed or two handed, but I guess you could use both. The same goes for assassin with one handed and archery, thought you could count alchemy and sneak because they allow you to do more damage. Now with warrior or assassins, their stamina goes down as they use their weapons. However, you can still use melee weapons to limited effect even with no stamina left. For archers, you cannot fight without arrows, but you can easily control how many arrows you want to bring with you, whereas a mage has to level up ton increase his magicka.

A mage has three ways of doing damage: destruction, conjuration, and illusion. His magicka level decreases with every spell use. However, he cannot attack at all when his magicka runs out. To compensate, the amount of magicka used per skill decreases as that skill increases. This makes it necessary for the mage to use all three skills in order to win. He is being given the ability to use more and more magicka as he levels up, so he needs to capitalize on that skill. If he continues to focus on a single skill (I.E. destruction), he will fail because the damage does not increase, the magicka does.

There are two different systems for two different playstyles.
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Joe Bonney
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:37 am

You dont even understand what i and other people complaining about.

Warrior/Thief have motivation to lvl up, warrior for instanse need 5 skills mastered minimum: 1 weapon skill, 1 armor skill and 3 craftings skills that improve his weapon DAMAGE and his ARMOR RATING, combined together these skill works in synergy. Thief need even more.
Mages hower benefit ONLY from alchemy and ONLY from 1 TYPE OF POTION (bust of destruction damage ,we are talking about destro mages here.)
If you want play pure destro mage, you need to master destruction and enchanting, because if you will lvl up futher you damage output WILL NOT IMPROVE, but the mobs WILL BECOME STRONGER.

Because pure destruction mages were overpowered in Oblivion. That's also why Bethesda didn't implement the spell-making altar. Bethesda wants you to use all magic schools to survive and win as a mage, to find a combination, not to "easily" become the undefeatable destruction mage as it was in Oblivion. They made it that no one can play based on one magic school alone.

Then again, who are they to tell us how to play the game? If we want to play an overpowered destruction only mage who owns all of Skyrim, so be it.
So... you'll have to wait for the mods (on the PC that is).
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Stat Wrecker
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:41 am

That would be because they both mastered destruction... I don't recall the last time gaining a level increased damage at all...

EDIT: The difference being that the lvl 60 character would have other skills leveled to back it up. Otherwise they wouldn't be lvl 60.
Read my post number 133, if you cant undersant that, i cant help you.
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Meghan Terry
 
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Post » Sat May 12, 2012 3:44 pm

That's just wrong. if you have the right perks you can do 15 times the damage even with a dagger and that's not including one handed perks and enchanting boots. A destruction mage on the otherhand can't improve damage past a 75% boost and even dual casting will only take it to around a 150%. This means if you take a master level spell like firewall or whatever it's called) you end up with 500 or so damage dealt. Meanwhile a warrior or even a thief using a dagger can quite easily dish out 1500 damage per hit. Add to this a mage can't wear armour without nerfing regen while a warrior or thief can easily wear top armour without suffering damage output hits and you end up totally unbalanced classes

Daggers are bugged 1handed enchants dont work with them
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Saul C
 
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