Your argument makes no logical sense. The TES world is an objective, definable world that has been expressed through a series of media over time. While it is true that the Bethesda devs are the controllers of the direction for this defined world there is still history to contend with. They can either conform with history and bind themselves to this or they can do what they did and present an irrational world rife with contradictions.***

Can the developers work levitate out of the world? Yes.
Did they? No. They ignored it.


Levitate exists in the TES world. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.



*** if the intent of the development staff is to only use the TES name for $$$ purposes while doing whatever the heck they want, then [censored]ting all over the defined game world makes sense and arguments like Nerevarine's are perfectly logical. I am trying to give the devs the benefit of the doubt and am arguing from the position that the devs actually respect the cultures and world they are creating and the genre they work in.

Well, what about the Passwall spell that was in Arena and removed in later games? Why did they remove it! I demand them to return the spell no matter how bad an idea it is now.

Passwall made sense in Arena as a spell but was a pain for later games, thus the universe changed and it wasn't available anymore. Levitation is the same. Sure the older games which are cannon did include the spell, but in the context of game making, this spell is problematic so it was removed.

You shouldn't let the past features get in the way of the future games just because they existed. Bad ideas are bad ideas even if they were done before.

A spell like passwall would be an amazing spell for stealthy builds. It is a loss to the community that they were unable to figure out how to work it into the world in some manner. Having a spell like that allow someone to wander through whatever wall they wanted would be problematic. But don't tell me devs could not use their noodles to figure out ways to make it viable.

Rather than take the time to make the world work they take the lazy way out.

Well, there are two very important reasons why Levitation was not included in Oblivion and Skyrim. And this is not just because the cities need to be contained in their own cells, which is the main reason for it not being included. I was hoping someone would have come up with this by now. In Oblivion, it would have removed the challenges of the Oblivion Gates, as you could float up to the doors you were intended to fight your way to. In Skyrim, it would pretty much take away half the dragon battle challenges, which is damage the dragon while it is in flight and to get it to land. People said Oblivion Gates and Dragons are too easy now, with Levitation, there would be even less of challenge.

However, I can understand why people want it, what I can't understand is why people think it is needed in the game. There is no game related reason for Leviation in Skyrim as there is no place you need to float to or around in this game. One poster said that views from up on high are incredible. Well, yes they are, but I can climb up to all kinds of places to have a nice view, I don't need to float up there.

First, I'd say that levitation would barely help in a dragon battle at all. Levitation is slow, dragons are zipping all over the place. It'd barely be any more effective than fighting a dragon on the ground. Perhaps even more difficult as you'd have to concentrate both on fighting the dragon and maintaining levitation lest it run out and you fall to your death.

Even assuming it would be unbalanced, why are level design and encounter problems dumped on things like levitation? I mean, you were just arguing that levitation shouldn't be in Skyrim, because nothing is designed around accommodating levitation. Why then would we compare Skyrim designed with levitation in mind to Skyrim designed without levitation in mind, but the devs shoehorned it in anyway? If the devs cannot think of creative ways to maintain challenge while including something as straightforward as levitation, perhaps the problem is with their design skills. Enemies with range attack options, enemies who dispell your levitation (this could result in death from the fall), enemies who can fly or use levitation themselves, reduce the speed of levitation, make the maximum levitation height a result of your skill level or spell level (low level means hovering five feet off the ground, beneficial for crossing gaps, not for avoiding enemies), remove combat options while levitating (say the concentration cost is too great to focus on other things while levitating), etc. Any of the solutions could fix the problems you're seeing here.

I'd also argue that some areas should be a breeze for certain characters. If the challenge is fighting two dozen enemies, a warrior will obviously chop their way through with ease in comparison to an unarmored thief or mage. Why then, shouldn't a mage with levitation have an easier time when the challenge is to ascend to the top of some structure? That's not a broken mechanic or avoiding gameplay. That is gameplay. That's playing to your character's strengths, that's using your skills and the environment to your advantage. It's no different than a thief sneaking past enemies instead of fighting them head on.
Nothing is "necessary". Beth could easily leave out whole races and still produce a game as large as Skyrim. It doesn't mean that it's a good decision or that it shouldn't be changed

You hit the nail on the head with this one buddy. I spent the better part of yesterday trying to explain this by pointing out examples of stuff that was not necessary but was included in the game to add fun and flavor, and all I got were questions about why I was talking about 2H weapons and chasing butterflies in a thread about a spell. I hope your simple and straightforward statement sinks in better than my feeble attempts at explanation.

Thank you Merari. Could not have said it better myself.

Never understood why it was taken away after Morrowind. It worked great.

So you are telling everyone here that wants to see something different in the next game to just stop expressing themself? These forums are full of people expressing their wants and desires for changes to the game and for things to be included in future games. Here is an example of an active thread entitled "I want a Mortar and Pestal": http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1360609-i-want-a-mortar-pestle-thread-189732397/ And guess what? Sometimes Bethesda listens to what is said here and does include suggestions from the forums in new games.

Why is do you persist in saying that customer feedback on this forum is a bad thing?

The Oblivion point HAS been brought up in this thread, indirectly. IE: If you build defenses in a world where levitate exists that does not take this into account then that is just poor design. Oblivion gates are an example of the world not being designed to take into account the world. Also, why should levitate even work in Oblivion? Maybe it is gimped there for one reason or another? You also ignore the fact that levitate can be balanced in a way that traversing large distances/heights is something only highly skilled characters can do effectively. Or that baddies can be positioned and armed to make it challenging to impossible to abuse levitate in key locations.

As for dragons, how epic would it be to be able to take on a dragon from up in the air? Absolutely freaking epic. That is how much... Just contemplating such things clearly paints how poor of a version of the TES world Bethesda delivered with Skyrim.

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't agree that it has been a problem on this thread. This thread has been a respectful discussion.

You are misconstruing the discussion entirely.

The point of "I want it" is that it would make a more fun and enjoyable game with it so it should be included.

The "it's not needed" argument is invalid because it ignores the basic purpose of a game which is to have fun.

Your argument that it is childish to "want" things in a game is nothing more than base namecalling.

On the whole, yes. I think admoni in particular throwing around terms like "lame" and "lazy" wasn't helping their otherwise well put arguments. (Well put - but I'm still not convinced).

I was. There are any number of explanations for why parts of the TES world were excluded/ignored. Laziness, incompetence, bad design philosophy, inappropriate resource allocation, impossible deadlines.... It's all speculation I am willing to bet that even the Bethesda staff themselves would not be able to agree on a single reason that objectively takes in all of the factors that went into the decision.

I notice that none of your potential explanations include "design decision" or "not compatible with new engine". You're hell-bent on finding Bethesda at fault for removing a feature you liked, and it seems like you literally can't conceive of a world where anyone would not consider that a grievous mistake.

Well you know it is pretty hard to convice a person to change their minds, so if the arguments on the thread were well put, then that is about the best we can hope for here in the forums. Beyond that it is for the Gods to decide!

(The Gods of course being Todd Howard and his panoply of game creators. And a word to the wise here, as the big red panda points out, the Gods are not likely to be pursuaded by words like "lazy" and "lame.")

Design decision not an explanation. As for levitate not being compatible with this new engine you speak of, feel free to link to any comments from staff stating this as an issue. Why would they build an engine that ignores the game world like this? One would think that when brainstorming requirements for a new engine that aspects of the game world are considered so that they can be built into the system. Sounds like poor design if this did not happen. hmmm....since we are on the subject....I wonder when they were brainstorming requirements if passwall was ever considered in this "new" engine...


Even though I don't do character builds with them I'd find Bethesda at fault if they suddenly decided that two-handed weapons were unnecessary. Levitation's exclusion is just part of a meta critique of Bethesda's content cutting and limiting choice in a game that has always been about "do what you want." Heck, if levitation was the -only- thing cut out of the game I'd still gripe but my assessments would be nowhere near as harsh.

You are right....more appropriate ways would be to say things like: "get a modder to do their job for them"

....or something to that effect....

Accounting for Levitation in the game causes :

- changes the way the levels are designed
- makes it impossible to present physical barriers to navigation in the outside
- unless you do dumb things like install magical anti levitation barriers or AAA batteries around the points you want to keep levitation free
- it increases QA work by forcing them to check every single map for sequence break evens caused by flying that could result in totally broken and stuck quests
- it forces the devs to come out with something other than big city in separate cells, thus increasing their work load by a lot to make it happen (not that I wouldn't love it though but it's still "smart" to do it like that)

Basically, adding levitation is like adding a tiny feature that only impacts a minority of players but adds a LOT of work to make it work correctly and not have the game break even more.


Levitation is NOT worth the time to implement in the game and that's all there is to it.

Mordy, you make some good points. Let me try to address some of them.


It could be argued that this would lead to a more interesting game world.


Probably true, but where is the harm if levitation is limited to those with 100 Alteration and a bunch of perks invested into Alteration? Once you are master at anything in Skyrim, you are overpowered, so I don't see a big problem with being able to easily pass some bandit's drawbridge at that point.

I imagine there are a few places that would need key required doors instead of ledges to prevent folks from doing certain quests out of order, so levitation would have to be taken into consideration at the time the game was being designed, rather than after the fact, but that would not stop Bethesda from adding a new area to the game through DLC and allowing levitation to work only in that area. Kind of like Mournhold but in reverse. They could have a Skyrim expansion that allowed levitation only in that new area (and they could dream up some sort of lore explanation as to why -- they are a creative bunch you know).


Perhaps it would increase workload, so the question becomes, how many of the millions of Skyrim players would think levitation was fun. This forum is a skewed sample at best so no one really knows whether it is a "minority" or not.


Not necessarily because you could have an invisible "loading zone dome" around each city that would load the area as you passed through, just like what happens when you enter a cave.

Turija, I came upon this thread late (last time I looked at it it was a one page wonder), but I just stopped by to say that you're fantastic. This forum needs balance, and you do a fine job of respecting both sides while addressing the problems with their points or manner of expression. It's a better job than I'd do, that's for sure - I get too frustrated with certain attitudes.

Well, thanks! Made my day.

This may be the most hypocritical thing I've ever seen posted on these forums. You go from calling people who criticize the game and trash talk it "Internet Gangstas" and then say "I wish they'd say this stuff in Real Life", which would imply that you wish they would so you could...what? Beat them up? That's more "Internet Gangsta" then anything someone trashing the game is doing. Oh, FYI, while I do love Skyrim, I openly trash the aspects of it I don't like to anyone I know who has played the game in RL. If I knew you in RL, I'd gladly trash talk the parts I don't like. Want to beat me up for it?


So now you're saying that everyone who has bought Skyrim has absolutely no right to criticize the game at all? How can developers learn what the fans like if they aren't critiqued? What is the purpose of Video Game Magazines if it isn't to Critique the games that they are reviewing? Do you even think before you post such nonsensical tripe? Anyone who shelled out $60-100+ for Skyrim has every right to talk about the games that aren't done right, and should be fixed. They also have every right to complain about aspects of it that they just don't like. It's called an opinion. Grow up, and deal with it.

1) There would be no need to change the way levels are designed if they did their jobs and accounted for the game world in the first place.
2) It's a game world of their design, nothing is impossible.
3) don't be a TES hater. Levitate exists in Nirn. Let them make the defenses they have to make without calling them names.
4) what? they did QA before 11/11/11?
5) pointless / repetition of worthless talking point

Bethesda's ability to make broken games is unparalleled. Part of what keeps people coming back is variety. You grossly overstate the effort it would take to add levitate to the game and the fact that it could potentially become unbalanced at higher levels is a worthless argument considering the fact that there already exists such exploits in the game. You completely ignore the fact that levitate could easily be balanced to make it hard to exploit/break at low levels.

You know, considering the hundreds of game breaking bugs and issues that have happened since release of Skyrim. The cost/risk of adding levitate and dealing with some exploits at higher levels or occasional characters sometimes flying off into no no land.... dealing with that would be a small drop in the bucket with the errors they left in the game and it would add a huge extra dimension to game play for those that would use it.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.


Accurately portraying the TES world is a good thing and that's all there is to it.

Since the thread is at limit I want to repeat this...

- More variety in games like TES is what will keep people coming back for more.
- It's not like Bethesda is capable of making games that are bug or glitch free.
- SR has had hundreds of game breaking bugs and issues that have happened since release
- Exploits/creating OP characters is possible with or without levitate

Adding levitate and introducing some exploits at higher levels or occasional characters sometimes flying off into no no land would be a small drop in the bucket compared with the errors they left in the game. And it would add a huge extra dimension to game play for those that would use it.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.