The skill is already trivialized and made superfluous, since you can pick every non-key lock in the game with no skill levels or perks in Lockpicking. That being the case, adding an Open spell or Bash ability cannot, by definition, diminish role-play, since it's already been thrown out the window.The claim that there's no skill investment for an Open spell or Bash ability is also a fallacy, as it's based on the false assumption that there would be no requirements for said spell or ability.

In Oblivion, for example, there were multiple levels of Open spell available for purchase, corresponding to the various levels of locks from Very Easy to Hard, but you had to make your own custom spell to use it on Very Hard locks. As this required 100 Alteration it wasn't something you could do right off the bat, and the heavy use of leveled locks meant that not having such a spell was a significant drawback of going 'pure mage'. Of course, Oblivion shot itself in the foot by not matching lock difficulty to contents, with the result that said investment into the skill was, more often than not, a complete waste of time. Granted the Monty Haul bandit loot lists were just as bad (but for different reasons), but that was no excuse for padding the chest lists with 0-value junk.

Any Bash ability would require a significant level of One (or Two, as the case may be) Handed and at least one perk, just to be able to use it, just as any Open spell would need at least one perk and significant skill in (presumably) Alteration. Ideally there would be additional perks, so that to be as quiet and skilled at it as a Thief you'd need a similar investment; to do otherwise would invite discovery, with its attendant risks.

If you're hidden while picking a lock, you can't be caught. Only when you're being watched will a broken pick snap you out of the picking session and get you in trouble. I'd much rather invest in sneak perks than lockpicking.

The function of the lockpicking skill is not to open locks? Then what is it for?

The problem is that the lockpicking skill is dedicated to picking locks. That is all it's used for. If you had an Open Lock spell then the Alteration skill would control its efficacy, but the Alteration skill has more uses outside of picking locks. So we'd have two skills that can do the same thing, except one is more efficient and can do more. If that doesn't trivialize lockpicking, I don't know what does.

As I mentioned in a previous post, TES has never gotten a good player vs character balance with lockpicking. Daggerfall and Morrowind required no player skill, which made it boring, and Oblivion and Skyrim required no character skill, which made it useless. Neither are good for a game that tries to mesh player skill and character skill, but that doesn't mean there isn't a happy medium that makes it both fun and useful.

The f'd up bit is that Oblivion's Alteration works better to handle tiered locks than Skyrim's Lockpicking. So then not only do you have a Lockpicking skill that just duplicates an ability of Alteration, but it does so in a flawed manner.

I'd rather have more meaningful choices and more unique play styles between character types, over more frivolous options that you know Bethesda wouldn't keep (why waste time developing a lockpicking skill that just poorly duplicates an ability of the Alteration skill?).

IMO, it's a mistake that lockpicking doesn't need a hefty skill level to work properly on high-level locks. A low-level thief should not be able to get through a high-level lock just like a low-level warrior should not be able to beat a high-level creature in open combat. The solution is to fix the skill, not relegate it to the graveyard (people always complain that Bethesda doesn't bother to fix skills and gameplay features, and ends up throwing them out).

That's the thing, it doesn't fit the character. A character that doesn't train in lockpicking isn't fit to open locks.

What would fit is being able to make the lockpicking skill more magically- or more physically-oriented for mage- or warrior-based characters, respectively. An Open Lock spell? Then you best know magic well enough to physically alter objects (Alteration) and you best know how locks work so you know how to properly alter it (lockpicking/security), and not hit any contents as collateral damage in the process. Bashing? Then you best have the strength to damage the lock and open the latch (weapon skill) but also know how the lock is designed (lockpicking/security), so you can more efficiently take out just the lock and not hit the goods.

The only real question would be how something like that would affect doors, since they don't have "contents" that can risk damage.

This current LP style requires your skill rather than Fallout's bullcrap where even though it is slightly different then an easy lock you still cannot even try to pick it because your "skill" isnt high enough. Saying that using magic to open a lock instead of a LP and that being wrong is like saying that using destruction magic is wrong because you "should" use a sword

Then shouldn't the solution be to fix it, instead of leaving it broken and making it worse?

You guys really want Bethesda to remove a meaningful choice that involves an actual consequence, and to not fix a broken skill? Something sounds very backwards here...

There's no skill investment to magically open locks. There's a skill investment into a class of magic that can alter the environment, which has much more utility than for simply opening locks. A mage would invest in Alteration for other reasons besides the ability to open locks. That you get the ability to open locks is a "free" bonus.

One- and Two-Handed skills, and the Alteration skill, give you much more as a player/character than just the ability to open a lock. Lockpicking should give you way more bang for your buck at dealing with locks than skills that aren't directly related to locks. In addition, you should need to invest in lockpicking to be able to handle higher-level locks.

You should have said this several posts ago, as it would have made things much clearer to begin with. You've decided that only those who invest in a specific skill should be able to pick locks, regardless of whether or not said skill actually fits the character's role, and are then using this flawed basis to proclaim that to do otherwise is to go against role-playing. This completely ignores the fact that the whole point of different roles is to approach the same problem in different ways, which is not possible when the only allowed means of opening locks is via use of the Lockpicking skill.

So you want mages and warriors to need two skills to do the same thing a thief can do with one. Sorry, no sale, as that's completely against differentiation of roles. A mage does not need to know how a lock works in order to polymorph it into a soup bowl, nor does a warrior need to know how one works in order to beat the crap out of it until it shatters. The former is a literal case of 'mind over matter', while the latter is the exertion of brute force on a stationary object.

I do agree, however, that use of lower skill levels against higher-tier locks should carry a real risk of trashing the contents (and possibly the container to boot), since misapplied force will cause collateral damage. Instead of requiring the Lockpicking skill, I would add perks in the proper (1H, 2H, Alteration) skill trees that would allow for better control over the results of the attempt, so that investment would be required to have a good chance to keep the majority of the contents. I would also make said contents commensurate with the lock's difficulty rating, so that you think twice about attempting a high-tier lock at low skill and/or few/no perks but still get something worthwhile for your efforts if you do manage to safely crack it.

I have been saying that. To pick locks you should need to invest in the skill whose sole purpose is to pick locks.

And that's ignoring the point that the entire purpose of the lockpicking skill is to pick locks. If you're going to have a spell to efficiently open locks at no real cost and bypass the lockpicking skill, why not have a spell to efficiently summon and wear the most durable heavy armor at no cost and bypass the Heavy Armor skill?

The Bound Weapon spells under Conjuration work on a mixture of Conjuration and the weapon type's skill (ie, Bound Bow affects and is affected by both Conjuration and Archery). Why wouldn't an Open Lock spell be the same with Alteration and Lockpicking/Security?

If you're not familiar with lock design, you wouldn't know where and how to hit the lock so the contents of the chest don't get damaged, or you could miscalculate and end up turning some of the contents into bowls of soup along with the lock.

Considering that Alteration and the weapon skills would give more to the character than just the ability to handle locks, yes.
Lockpicking - ability to open locks with lockpicks
Alteration - ability to open locks without lockpicks, ability to light areas, ability to move objects, etc...
Weapon - ability to open locks without lockpicks, ability to dish out damage, ability to paralyze enemies, etc...
You don't think this is just a little bit off-kilter? Where a thief can invest in lockpicking as much as a mage can invest in alteration, and the mage ends up being able to handle locks better than the thief and has a bunch of extra abilities on top of that?

Sounds like they should be Lockpicking (or really, Security) perks. Why would 1H, 2H, and Alteration perks deal with the know-how of locks? They should deal with 1H, 2H, and Alteration capabilities, while the Lockpicking/Security perks would deal with the various ways to handle locks.

Are you reading my posts or just seeing what you want to see?

I never said that the system we have is perfect. I said in this very thread it could be changed greatly. I offered up ways I'd like to see it changed.

Oblivion also didn't have perks, so the system worked there.

The system would not work in an instance where one would not technically need to invest any perks in Alteration to use the spells (you can use any spell in game as long as you have the magicka to cast it), thus rendering Lockpicking useless.

And since the argument of this topic is Lockpick already being useless (the unbalance between the mini game and the skill), why would you want to offer more solutions to trivialize the skill, instead of solutions to fix the skill?

Open Lock spells worked in Oblivion, where the only investment was leveling up Security or Alteration. But the difference in Skyrim is that Lockpick (theoretically, although it does not work properly) requires perks to advance in, meanwhile Alteration does not require perks to gain access to higher level spells, thus, Open Lock spells. Lockpick thus becomes a broken skill because of another.

The mini-game didn't work in Oblivion any more than it works in Skyrim. The lock picking mini-game NEEDS TO GO. Once removed than you just rely soley on the characters skill, which is what it should rely on. Once you remove the mini-game than everything goes back to working like nessecary. You need to increase lock picking skills to pick locks, you need to increase alteration to increse your "Open" Spell and creat another skill set for the warriors called "Bashing" and you need to increase that to open locks. No one has an advantage and everyone needs to increase something to open locks.

Problem solved, REMOVE THE MINI-GAME.

While the mini game is not a proper balance between character and player skill, going back to the inferior days of relying on dice rolls for your success is a huge step backwards, and no, not the correct choice.

Why is an RPG mechanic inferior in an RPG game?
Its my characters skill that should be the bulk of what I can do, not my own buttonmashing skills. Thats not RPG.
I would say its a step forward when in a roleplaying game the character's skills determine the success of an action.
I want to go back to Morrowind combat, at least I had the statisfaction of progression there.
In Oblivion and Skyrim its hard before I know the controls and AI of the game, which is the first 30 minutes I own it.
After that, hard enemy only means I have to hit at it more.
In Daggerfall and Morrowind I chose one weapon skill as a major skill and started with a 50% chance to hit.
It took time and effort to get to 100% chance to hit, but when you got there you felt like you had achieved something.
Your character had mastered the weapon type.

Just simple math really. If you have a level 25 lock you will need 25 skill in lockpicking or a perk that says you can pick it.

Does not sound like dice roll to me

I felt no sense of accomplishment from leveling up my skills in Morrowind, because my character's success had nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the game determining, via dice rolls, if I was to be successful or not.

While character skill is of importance in an RPG, if the player is to not have their skill come into the equation, then they should watch a movie or read a book.

If I am playing a game, then my actions and abilities should come into play, and even in the most character skill driven of games, player feedback is still needed when a player uses their brain to make decisions for the character. Player decision making has nothing to do with character "skill", me deciding to enter a cave, or jump across a rooftop, or the decision to get into battle has nothing to do with "character skill", it is all player feedback. So why should combat be any different?

No, but it goes against one of the foundations that makes Elder Scrolls.

If I have to be level 25 in Lockpick to pick a level 25 lock, then where does it stop? Do I have to now be level 50 Heavy Armor to wear Dwemer armor? Level 75 Two Handed to use an Orc Warhammer? These are all totally inferior RPG systems that Elder Scrolls has long distanced itself from, that will totally destroy the series for me if they begin to implement these arbitrary rules.

In an RPG, your actions guide what path your character goes down.
Is he a thief or a mage? Is he honourable or ruthless?
Its about the roleplaying.

For roleplaying, it is better if the character's skill determines the outcome of events, as it is all about the character.
When you take away from that, when you make it so the player skill is the determining factor, then you take away from what differentiates different characters and therefore diminish the roleplaying.
In a platform game it is all about the buttonmashing skills.

(double post, sorry.)

There are a lot of RP reasons to take perks in the Lockpick tree, and those two you mention are good examples. They give a reward for being a thief in this game.

I have never spent a perk in the skill. I see no reason to forego any pf the perks for reasons outside of RPing.The system should not rely on the skill of the player. It should be based on the character. I am on the side of granting a skill based option for all classes, pending spell, lockpick or bashing. The minigame should be removed.

Well yeah. If you have not invested enough in lockpicking then you are not skilled enough to pick a certain lock. Wearing a piece of armor does not require skill. To use it effectively requires skill. A lock cannot be simply picked by anyone as armor can be worn by anyone.

Player feedback is fine in other games. In an RPG the player feedback needs to be MINIMAL. I wouldn't go as far as saying I want Morrowind's combat back, the combat in Oblivion and in Skyrim is much improved.


Have to disagree with you on that. I found just as much treasure, weapons and armor without a single lock picking perk. There is no reward for lock picking perks, they just make it so you can get it done quicker, which isn't a reward.

A hard skill check similar to fallout for lock picking and dialog is preferred.

TES is and has always been an Action-RPG. It relies on character skill and player skill (and as a result, needs a certain amount of player feedback). This is why Oblivion and Skyrim combat is better than that of Daggerfall and Morrowind. All four rely on player skill and character skill, and they're all roughly balanced for similar damage throughput. Oblivion and Skyrim, however, give better feedback for when you, the player, make a successful hit or block. The game responds with actually registering the hit or block you made as a player, regardless of your character skill.

Of course your character skill still plays an important role. Your skill as a player won't save you when your character is severely outmatched by the enemy (without effectively cheating, anyway). However, the closer matched you and your opponent are, the more your skill as a player will tip the scales. Given the same character progression, someone who's good a real-time first-person combat will start winning earlier than someone who has trouble with it. You're always free to try, though.

IMO, lockpicking should be the same way. If you as a player are good at picking locks, the game should acknowledge that with proper feedback. A low-level character would never be able to open a high-level lock obviously, but as your character skill level and the lock level converge, your player skill should start influencing the outcome. In all cases, though, you should still be free to try your hand.

Agree. You should be forced to find the key for every lock that is locked.

And I feel just the opposite. The reason WHY Oblivion and Skyrim have failed compared to Daggerfall and Morrowind is BECAUSE of too much player feedback and not enough character creation and skills and removal of RPG elements.

TES has NEVER been about action RPG's. It wasn't that way with Arena, Daggerfall or Morrowind. It didn't start until Oblivion and has gotten worse with Skyrim and unless changes are made will be even worse with TES VI.

RPG = Character NOT Player.