Well then you wouldn't like the original table-top RP games then because it had everything to do with the GM and the die rolls...and nothing to do with you per se. The only YOU involved were the decisions you made and the consequences thereof. You were playing a role.

Why does oakflesh and stoneflesh exist if there's heavy and light armor? While we're drawing arbitrary lines here, if the sole purpose of onehanded is to kill things, we don't need two handed. Destruction already covers ranged combat, so archery can go away too.

I can pick master locks with 1 pick while standing on my head, one eye closed, one arm tied behind my back and sleeping. Hurrrrrrrr

Lockpicking is already a worthless skill tree because it focuses entirely on the "stealth" skill of picking locks.

Why couldn't "Security Avoidance" be a skill tree instead, and have 3 routes? Bashing and Smashing, Picks and Stealth, and Magic or Wizardry.

The problem is that lockpicking was made an entire skill tree. There's just not enough there to justify an entire skill. You can do master locks easily without skill anywhere near 100 and with no perks. That's a waste.

At most, Lockpicking should have been a perk or two in some other skill.

Those arguing that adding a magic option or a bash option would trivialize or marginalize the lockpicking skill by giving the player a way around it seem to forget that there's nothing preventing Open spells or Bash Skills from requiring some development as well.

Nobody here is arguing for a "win" button when it comes to locks. The problem everyone sees is that, quite to the contrary, we already seem to have one. There are many ways to address that. Adding more options won't necessarily create a problem, if the new options are added correctly. But that also assumes that the original option, lockpicking as it exists now, needs to be fixed as well.

I am not talking about the Perks that help lock picking, there is no reason to pick those. I am talking about what you get from the container once you open it. You may find cool stuff without those Perks, but with them, you find much more.

What, exactly? Are you more likely to find dragon/daedric at lower levels or what? I thought about that perk but wasn't sure if it would really help...

It's not that the minigame is too easy, but rather there's no way in hell the perks are worth it. There's enough lockpicks that you can afford to experiment with a Master lock until you get it, but there's no reasons to justify taking the adept-locks-are-easier perk instead of 20% more damage or armor.

Here's my suggestion, and from what I undestand. With the mini-game being made in a modular flash program... it's completely possible.

It would however require a COMPLETE overhaul of everything lockpicking related.

Google search for this:
Hillsfar lockpicking.

Old game from the Pools of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc.

You might end up stumbling across a youtube video about it.
you can skip to about the 7min mark.

It's cheap and chinsey yes. It resembles that old game you used to play as a toddler where you tried to shove a square through a round hole.

In the case of skyrim, you could definetely follow up on this idea and make it a little more in depth in relation to what Skyrim offers. Such as:
Perks that allow you to use a paticular shape, or just give more efficiency and less chance to break a lockpick of a certain Shape
etc.


Make Master level chests require a certain Shapes to unlock it.

People with low skill levels in lockpicking may have never heard of such lockpicks, or maybe they have heard of them but they svck at using them..

Inspiration from Diablo:
Make 3 types of lockpick sets.
Normal
Exceptional
Elite
(don't forget to account for perks)

Each set has about 5 different shapes
Each shape within the set has it's own difficulty modifier.
Example.
Normal Shape 1 at skill level 25 would have 5% chance of breaking
Normal Shape 5 at skill level 25 would have a 15% chance of breaking...etc.

But this would need to introduce the ability to buy each shape individually.... Who's up for adding 15 different shaped lockpicks into the game?

It makes complete sense too. Have any of you ever seen an actuall lockpicking set? It's not just 1 do it all tool. It's a plethora of different shaped pokers.

This is exactly what I've been saying all along, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

As it so happens, I feel that the Lockpicking skill does, in fact, need to be fixed, as it's a complete joke in its current state. First off, the mini-game has to go; until player skill is removed from the equation the perks will never be worth taking, because they only matter if the character's skill is the sole determinant of success or failure.

Then again, that should have remained the character's sole purview to begin with, since the character's skills have to actually matter for a role to have any substance. After all, they define the role in the first place; as a master swordsman, for example, you want to raise 1H (or 2H), Block, and an Armor skill, since those are the things that make the character what he is. Similarly, if you want your character to be a master safecracker you raise Lockpicking, since that's how he does his job.

And therein lies the rub: while it's proper that cracking locks should be the domain of the Lockpicking skill, it is not proper that a character whose role does not involve the picking of locks should have to use said skill to open them. Thus the desire for an Open spell and/or Lock-bashing mechanic, so that the player does not have to break role to open a container or door.

You would be wrong, I greatly enjoy table top RPG's...

Although my experiences with them have also been with GM's that make the game about the players, and try to make dice rolls, stats, and rulesets as small a part of the equation as possible.

everyone speaks as if picking locks is unfair, it is a SINGLEPLAYER game! In a multiplayer situation where everyone is in competition unfair advantages are an issue, but in a game where nobody is affected by what YOU do and nobody can even SEE what you do, fair is irrelevant. Dont pick the lock and get the loot, just go about your business if you have such a problem with the existence of the minigame. Magic/brute options SHOULD be available merely because it is an RPG and it adds variety. The minigame is fine and it should stay because it requires you to do SOMETHING in order to get whatever is in the chest. If you are too "busy" to pick the lock then you dont deserve the loot, but if they add the other 2 options then it would prolly be more exciting to deal with the locks for some people. Maybe there should be a minigame for magic where it acts JUST like the LPs but drains magic slowly and if you cannot pick it fast enough you run out of magic and have to wait for a recharge

So let me get this straight...

- Oblivion/Skyrim combat is much improved.
- That's because of the extra feedback from combat (you block when you block, and you hit when you hit).
- That's why it failed.

Oblivion failed because of the feedback that improved it?

I beg to differ. Combat and character actions have always been real-time. It has always relied on your reflexes as a player to move and strike (Daggerfall even had an option to specify your reflexes; setting it low made the game easier to compensate for you), and Morrowind added hotkeys to do more actions in real-time (such as switching weapons, preparing magic, using potions..).

Compare that to an RPG like Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights. Combat and character actions are turn-based. You can pause at any time to assess the situation and specify commands at your leisure, which are then automatically carried out for you in a time-appropriate manner. No matter how fast you are at telling your character to do something, it waits until your turn. The only reflex you needed was to be able to quickly press the pause button.

Oakflesh and stoneflesh are temporary buffs that consume magicka. They are not permanent like armor, and it's not always appropriate to use them if you need the magicka for something else. It's also impossible to use them if both your hands are needed for something else. They're not good replacements for the armor skills.

One handed is faster and deals less damage per hit than two-handed. One is for characters that want to take out enemies in as few hits as possible, while the other is for characters that want to strike more often.

Destruction magic deals with elemental forces. Someone who's strong against fire will not be taking a lot of damage from a fireball, while an archer arrow would get through unscathed. Similarly, someone who's weak to shock would take more damage from lightning, while an arrow would still deal the same damage it always would.

No, we're saying that Open spells and Bashing are tied with much more than simply the ability to bypass locks. Improving your alteration would give you the ability to open locks (at no real cost) and a wealth of other magical capabilities, and improving your weapon skill would give you the ability to bash locks (at no real cost) and increase damage output. But improving your lockpicking skill would give you the ability to pick locks (at the expense of your lockpick stash)... and nothing else.

A thief-type character that delves deep into the lockpicking tree should come out the best at getting through locks, not the worst.

There still is no advantage. I can find just as much stuff without them. It might take a little longer. i don't see that as a reason to take any perks in the Lock Picking perk tree.


Maybe you didn't read my posts so I'll repeat. I said MINIMAL not NONE. Again, MINIMAL player input. That MINIMAL player input would be the improved combat. I fully understand why people would not like swinging a sword, and physically hitting someone but not a dice roll saying you didn't make contact.

That is why I'm fine with the combat in Oblivion and Skyrim because if you physically hit something you hit it, but it uses your skills to determine how much damage it does. I feel it should be even further to the point that you have to have a certain strength to even use 2 handed weapons and lower the damage you can do with a weapon from the start so that it's imperitive to increase your sword skill and you have to decide on how much you want to use your weapon as a mage.

We should go back to how Morrowind did it. Removing the minigame and base it off skill.
This is a RPG, and how well you can do things should be based on the character, not the player. This is one of TES's weak points in the RPG business.

Unfortunately you skipped the rest of my post, which said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear. To be more precise:
Adding two new methods of picking locks can be done in a balanced way.
However, we must not overlook the fact that the existing lockpicking skill is still flawed, regardless of what you add.

Which is basically what you just said. I already know that the lockpicking skill is worthless. It, like any mage or warrior lock opening skills, should be tied to something else. I don't think you and I disagree.

A simple fix to the current game is to reduce the number of lockpicks. My characters tend to wind up with 200+ Whenever I get over 50 in my inventory I place the excess in a container back home. Soon the container is "overflowing" with lockpicks. Reduce the picks and make the perks worthwhile.

That removes one problem and then adds another. Sure you make the perks worthwhile but then you really break the immerission of the game because how are you supposed to role play a thief when you have a limited number of lock picks? Ontop of that, how are you supposed to improved the skill without using it and in the process breaking a very limited supply of picks?

The minute there are "strength" or skill requirements to use weapons and armor is the minute I walk away from Elder Scrolls.

Elder Scrolls is the anti-traditional RPG, it doesn't rely on arbitrary class systems and skill requirements, and that is why it is a vastly superior RPG to any others.

Once it starts incorporating the inferior RPG mechanics of the past is when it is no longer Elder Scrolls, and when I stop playing.

The Lockpicking perk tree is a joke. I do not need any perks to open Master locks and the last thing I need in this game is more gold. So the perks are completely useless.

If it was like Morrowind, where you just automatically fail harder locks until your skill (or perks) are increased, it would be worth something. But the problem then is that it would then seem required, because who in their right mind would want to leave a Master locked chess unopened? Even now, I always save before trying a Master lock, just in case. I am never going to leave one unopened, ever. Course I did in MW before I could get my skill up and find some Master lockpicks, so I suppose I could live with it.

But as it is now in Skyrim. Broken, Lockpicking perks are a complete waste. I would add that I find little use for Speechcraft also as I don't fail that many persuasion checks and again, I don't need more gold.

I had to install http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=7395 to make lockpicking harder and the perks worth getting.

Yeah, and without minigames there could be bashing of locks and open lock spells again. Then the player's effort would be equal.

Yes. TES doesn't arbitrarily restrict players from using things based on skill. It hasn't since Daggerfall. You could have a strength of 1 and a two-handed skill of 1, and you could still wield a Daedric Warhammer. You'll absolutely svck with it, but you can still take it up if you want.

That would be one way to do it, I suppose. But what would be it be tied to? Lockpicking is a rather stand-out skill that doesn't have much in common with other skills or abilities. Bashing is obviously tied together with strength or weapon skill (which is tied up with damage output and combat prowess), and Open Lock is closely tied with alteration (which is tied up with things like shield spells, light spells, etc). Lockpicking would be tied up with security, but what else is security tied with? There's not much there that I can think of, which is where the problem arises.

I suppose we have different standards of "minimal", then. To me, something like Neverwinter Nights or Dragon Age is on the "minimal" end of the player input(/feedback) spectrum. There's some, but not that much. In comparison, Daggerfall and Morrowind had quite a bit more.

Connect LP to sneak or pickpocket, if you use one then you are bound to use the other so it works

Spells aren't silent, are visible, and consume magicka. Lockpicking is the opposite of each of those. I'd say they're two different styles. So why are we arbitrarily drawing the line here again?

An arbitrary restriction is "you can't use that knife because you picked the fork class." Strength requirements are hardly arbitrary. They accurately reflect whether or not your character is physically capable of wielding a certain weapon. This is only if we're assuming a binary system. Strength requirements just as often impose penalties rather than simply disallowing an action altogether.
Like Drake said, tie it back into a security skill which would govern both lockpicking and pickpocketing.

Really, if Beth wants to make each option (stealth, combat, magic) meaningful, then they need to start implementing different lock classes. A magically locked chest can't be picked. It can be magically unlocked or it can be bashed to pieces (the latter option being more difficult, possibly destroying chest contents, and possibly igniting the magic placed on the chest which would deal damage to the player). A conventionally locked chest could not be opened through magical means. A wizard lacks the understanding of the mechanism to properly manipulate it. In this case, using a convention pick would be easiest, with bashing being an alternative option (again with the chance of damaging the chest contents). Further, implement traps in the same way, with certain ones being magical and others mechanical.

I'd also say that they should either remove the minigame entirely or impose a time limit on locks. If you can't pick it within X seconds, then you simply are not skilled enough. Increasing your skill/perks would then allow you to pick locks faster and open them within the allotted time.