Fair enough. For me when things are so clear cut between good and bad it takes a lot away from the world. I already know the shiny guys with nice hair cuts and white teeth are the good guys and the guy in black with a weird voice who is always peerin around corners is the bad guy.

Also I'm surprised to see you irritated by someones being patronizing.

You're forgetting the well-groomed villain, usually a Nobleman, or a member of the Royal court, vying to make a move for power. These are also easy to spot, though, from a mile away. They are often in the company of large, curmudgionly mercenary types who lead the minions.

I'm easily irritated, and incredibly outspoken. This should not suprise you.

True, but as you say they are usually easy to spot destroying a lot of the entertainment value for me. I assume this Nobleman has black hair and a bowl cut. Quite likely he has a bit of a "flourish" if you know what I mean. Also, nice use of curmudgeon.

True, but as you say they are usually easy to spot destroying a lot of the entertainment value for me. I assume this Nobleman has black hair and a bowl cut. Quite likely he has a bit of a "flourish" if you know what I mean. Also, nice use of curmudgeon.

It never takes any joy out of it for me, however it gives me a heads up on the potential turns the story is going to take. I see the cliche, I have an inkling of where this is going. I'm not bothered not being surprised, and and delighted when I actually am. As a man who writes short stories in his off and on time, as well as being hip deep in D&D (much to my chagrin, but that's a different story), I've developed the habit of seeing everything from TV to Movies in story structure and story elements.

I give praise to Alan Rickman for his protrayal of the Sherrif in the old Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves movie, He was both the crooked nobleman, and the henchman in one role, and pulled it off in both cliche's surperbly.

I've never done D&D but I've read enough that I can fairly often see the betrayal before it comes...

Back On Topic...

I didn't really mind the swords in Fallout 3 too much and I wouldn't mind seeing them again in NV. Preferably they would be used just by one faction though, perhaps a Yakuza resurgence

I've never done D&D but I've read enough that I can fairly often see the betrayal before it comes...and while you don't mind it it pisses me off greatly. That's probably a large part of why I like grey matters. The good guys aren't without their rimes, and the bad guys aren't purely cackling villains.



Back On Topic...

I didn't really mind the swords in Fallout 3 too much and I wouldn't mind seeing them again in NV. Preferably they would be used just by one faction though, perhaps a Yakuza resurgence

Well, there's the thing...I always felt that too much Grey, or at worst entirely Grey, the characters lose their soul and motivation as part of a story--granted...I understand that people aren't playing it to take part in a story, they want to play in a grey sanded sandbox...
Were we off topic? I could have sworn we were on a subnote.

Well, anywho...since we have the Legion, it would be a shame not to see a Gladius.

Well, there's the thing...I always felt that too much Grey, or at worst entirely Grey, the characters lose their soul and motivation as part of a story--granted...I understand that people aren't playing it to take part in a story, they want to play in a grey sanded sandbox...
Were we off topic? I could have sworn we were on a subnote.

Well, anywho...since we have the Legion, it would be a shame not to see a Gladius.

You act as if characters in a videogame have ever had any motivation other than being the player's [censored].

Or even a ludus.

See for me I like it when characters lose their soul. It's kind of a classic Greek approach I take. Like Hercules and his wife's unfortunate end. Most of characters are alcoholics or have anger issues or great depression or struggle with losing their religion....something. I'm a pretty happy guy so I find happiness rather boring.

Well, I play primarily RPG's, and those usually are pretty good in the story department for motivation to climb Mount Doom, if I may use the anology. Most videogames though, yes, don't offer a lot of reason why you must first travel through the Lava Level before crossing the Ice Level.
I like my heroics to have a reason, and that's why I play a lot of RPG's.

Well, I play primarily RPG's, and those usually are pretty good in the story department for motivation to climb Mount Doom, if I may use the anology. Most videogames though, yes, don't offer a lot of reason why you must first travel through the Lava Level before crossing the Ice Level.
I like my heroics to have a reason, and that's why I play a lot of RPG's.

But RPGs are all grimdark. There's no way you can avoid except for the fact that there is. And it has no other consequence than making you into a big damn hero.

You're forgetting that I already mentioned I had to pop anti-depressants playing that game. The dialogue choices left so much to be desired, it hurt, and I found the story so unrewarding that I haven't even thought about it since finishing that Awakening trainwreck.

I'm correct in assuming all this anti-depressant talk is a huge exaggeration right?

Your sarcasm detector should be flaring red about now.

But RPGs are all grimdark. There's no way you can avoid except for the fact that there is. And it has no other consequence than making you into a big damn hero.

Just a thought. Back when Fallout 3 came out, people complained that it was "Oblivon with guns". Now, I liked Oblivion, so this wasn't necessarily a bad thing for me, but there was a lot of black and white morality and self-contained factions (as in, the Mages and Figher's Guilds had nothing to do with each other, just like how say, the Paradise Falls Slavers were only concerned with the kids from Little Lamplight, and were totally ignored by say, the Outcasts) in both games, which was kind of a step down from Bethesda's previous Elder Scrolls title, Morrowind, which had faction quests that tied into each other (there was a lot of crossover between the Guilds and the Great Houses for example), as well as a main quest where you potentially did more harm than good. For example, if the player had never destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan, would Morrowind have been destroyed by the Ministry of Truth crashing into Vivec?

I know a lot of Fallout players might have no idea what I'm going on about, but bear with me. Also, play Morrowind.

With all this talk about how the factions of New Vegas interact with each other, and the morally grey storyline (at least what we know of it so far), it seems to me that Obsidian has listened to not just Fallout players, but has taken some of the gripes people had with Oblivion, and has addressed those as well.

Could New Vegas be an indication that perhaps The Elder Scrolls V (when it's announced) will be returing to the series' darker, more complex roots?

Yes, there is.

However, that is off-topic for this discussion.

May I suggest getting back on topic before this gets locked?

What easter egg?

True, but surely they'd look at the sales figures (New Vegas's pre-orders have already surpassed Fallout 3), and think there might be something to it.

I somewhat agree with you Listerman and somewhat disagree. It is indeed more in the tradition of folk story stuff, hero overcomes bad guy....but I wouldn't mind the level of Grey visible in Morrowind rather than the Monochrome world of Oblivion.

ok, sorry but at lest it should show more back-story with guild and characters and other associations. I hated how you became master of all guilds, made no sense.

You could become the Grey Fox, Grand champion, Listener, Arch Mage, and Fighter guild master and no one says anything? whats up with that?