And folks here is a demonstration of the -real- issue. people basing their dislikes of Attributes based on how it was done in past interations.

all that talk about Skyrim being a new game, its own game independent of the others, Progressive minded talk and all that jazz, and Attributes aren't apart of that thinking.

ha

Buddy, you can state all you want that races are different species, but that doesn't make it true. There are both different races on Tamriel, and different species. The species are Humans, Elves, and beast folk (not sure if Argonians and Khajit considered separate species, but I would assume so). And I'm not going to repeat the races again, as either you missed that earlier or don't care. Men and mer might have genetic similarities, but you can be genetically similar to another species without being similar enough to actually be the same species (real world example: neanderthals). Species is based on genetics, race is based on appearance. Men and mer are genetically too different to be the same, but close enough that they can interbreed (care to guess what genetic percent neanderthal the average human of European decent is?). The races of humans in Tamriel, for example, are all genetically similar enough to be the same species (that is, this is the case if they can all truly be called human. That's kind of the trick when arguing about these things in a fantasy realm).

Also, stereotypes are true for members of a group. Maybe even a majority, but they do not apply to everybody within a group. If I felt like doing some stereotyping, I could say that you're lack of understanding of how stereotypes work is a sign of cultural insensitivity, meaning you're probably whiter than Wonderbread. But that is an assumption born of a cultural stereotype, and whether or not it is true it is inaccurate, and thus not a fair assumption to make.

I understand why some people aren't fans of the attributes and certainly see how it simplifies things and makes it a bit easier for new players to come on board.

However, I felt it grounded my characters in a way that I could observe and keep track of.

I successfully played Nord mages, Orc assassins, and Bosmer two handed warriors in Oblivion even with the attribute system. You had to play the game correctly to really get what you wanted out of it. Work for it. You couldn't just through heavy armor on a Bosmer and cry out in anger while he's dragging himself through a dungeon.

I think the way they should have gone about it is to allow the player to choose certain attributes during character creation to allow for better roleplaying. Either leave the option to keep settings at default, the expected for that race type, or allow a select few options for default class styles, or simply allow full customization. Cap the attributes off at 50 (I think was the highest starting point for attributes) and let you tweak so that your character who you intend on being a certain class, and presumably was this class before game start, doesn't start out like all the rest.

I miss attributes in Skyrim though, if only for my like of them in the prior games.


EDIT: Stop arguing over races the point of the post is to discuss the attributes system of Skyrim versus previous games.

Actually, inaccurate means untrue.
Also, different species can't breed among themselves. That's basically the definition of species.

Kind of inclined to agree on the "soft reboot" (and Oblivion, FWIW). Thing is, I don't really see a middle ground unless (some games HAVE done this, not very well though) you're looking at toggles. For instance, not just Game Difficulty Levels... no, you'd have, say, RPG Level, Easy = Skyrim, 3 stats, Normal = 6-12 stats (STR, CON, INT, WIS, DEX, CHR or some derivation), something along those lines. Easy would just even distro across the 6-12. But adding back in, well, then you're looking at "confusing" again, I think. Personally, I don't mind how it is now. Skills now, I like much better than before, but we still have some problems with anti-grind limitations versus free level-ups just by walking (running) around. For example, it's ridiculously easy to level Illusion to 100, and level your character, just by spamming a single spell. Alteration too, but not as easy, whereas other skills can't keep up. For instance, Archery, which is easier to level than 1H or 2H. As a sneak thief, Muffling and Invis while Sneaking through a dungeon and just refreshing Muffle and Invisibility, you can easily gain 5-10 levels Illusion in a single dungeon while MAYBE gaining 1 or 2 Sneak and, if you're lucky, 1 Archery, forget about melee in comparison. Or, bring melee into the equation and compare Block to 1H, and do each equally, 1 Block for 1 Swing. Against a higher level enemy, you will quickly see flaws. Again, you can gain 5 levels in Block, easy, for every 1 in 1H. Once those things are fixed, come to a comfortable middle ground, I won't (I don't think) have any problems with TES mechanics at all.

Then blame the nature of the TES universe for being racist, because it's stated plenty of times that different races have different things they are better at than others.


Then that means that men and mer are the same species, which means that Mer being better at magic is racist.

I'm not sure I get you...I can agree that perhaps if attributes were done a different way (someone said something about setting them yourself, maybe something fallout-esque would be pretty good) they would be just fine. So I guess you can say I just don't like the way attributes used to be done, but at the same time I do think that attributes are more complex than they need to be. What the devs said when Skyrim first came out was pretty spot on: raising your attributes really comes down to trying to get more stamina, more health, more magic, speed (stamina means more sprinting=more speed) and more carrying capacity. The current leveling system provides all of that. Having it all separated out into the eight attributes or whatever is just...needless...other than to make the player feel like they're doing more.

That's why they should add other reasons for taking attributes. Different bonus's at certain levels of your attributes or something. Each attribute also governed different skills so it made more sense to choose the ones for the skills you used most. I rarely ever did it solely for health, magic, or stamina I did it determined by the skills I was using.

If they did this because that's what they though, that most people only sought one goal through them, fine, but in the end it only succeeded in streamlining the game further than Oblivion had with Morrowind.

Yes! This is what I'm saying! Having the races have preset attributes and skills that they are better at is stereotyping and technically racist! Is it really a bad thing? Meh, it's a fantasy game, it doesn't really matter. I'm just arguing the point.


You obviously missed what I said. Species are defined by genetic similarity, and can be close enough to interbreed but too far apart to be the same. How else do you think mules came to be? Or are horses and donkeys the same species now?


My thread, my rules. It was in the OP, so races are fair game. Don't like it? Take off. As for the rest of your post, I do agree, as I've said a couple times now, and attribute system wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't preset. And as far as suffering through it, I've been playing a Nord mage since Morrowind. I can tough through it for a character I really care about, but it's nice to have a little freedom when you're playing around with other builds.

It's not so much that people only had those goals as much as those were the only goals that were really accomplished by raising attributes. It's just that having the attributes makes you feel like you're doing more.

But, it's not racist, it's nature. If people of european origin suddenly developed the ability to see through walls, it wouldn't be racist, it would be nature.

They can't?!?

Nope, I know, I was deceived at first too, but no matter how long I tried, i just couldn't see through walls.

But I can. I need to lay off the bath salts.

That you do, I've heard you'll start having a craving for taking off your clothes and eating faces if you do it often.

You can actually affect the race's starting stats via your class's preferences. In Oblivion and Morrowind you'd get two preferred stats along with your class(Customizable if you chose a custom class, so High Elf Wizard with a Str and End focus was possible)

For some that doesn't allow for enough change and preference though.

OK, if we're talking about the abilities (Battlecry, Highborn, etc) that's one thing. I'll grant you that's totally nature (and that might even imply something about whether or not the races are actually races, as you were saying). But as for skills and attributes...well, Redguards have +10 athletics. If you can't figure it out form there, I'm done trying to explain it.

Here's my take on it as someone who has played TES 3-5 and quite a few other RPGs, as well as a regular d&d player(3.5, if that makes a difference)

Attributes were necessary up to Morrowind because they are a core component of indirect-control RPGs(the tabletop RPG model, if you will). If you want a recent example in video games, look at Dragon age Origins(fantastic game. if you haven't played it, you really should).

In a classic RPG, attributes are necessary because they use dice-roll mechanics. The only way to individually modify your hit chance, health, etc. is through attributes. If you take those out, it's purely down to the skill rank, which doesn't work for a lot of RPG systems. DA:O couldn't function at all if you take attributes out because they determine anything and everything to do with combat.

That was how it was with Morrowind-the classic RPG "roll it to win it" system. However, there's one problem with that in TES games: It's a direct control, first person game. You are in complete control of yourself as a character, and you play through their eyes. In that kind of system, having a hit chance system is absolutely ridiculous. It's like putting a first person aiming system into dragon age's archery-It's a mechanic that just doesn't fit with that kind of game.

When Oblivion was released, one of the biggest changes was the introduction of player skill-in combat, whether or not you hit something is controlled by you, not a random dice roll based on your weapon stats, attributes, and skill with the relevant weapon. In Oblivion's much improved combat system, attributes serve a completely passive role.

I think that's why they were removed-they stopped having any irreplaceable significance in the game's mechanics. They still had RP value, yes, but they were essentially nothing but passive boosts to everything.

Now, the question is this: how can we add in attributes in a way that makes sense? Not easily. The most common response is "just use Fallout's SPECIAL system. That works fine". Yes it does, but not in TES, and here's why: MAGIC. In Fallout, there are very few ways to augment your attributes. Because of that, you actually have to choose what attributes you want, and there are lots of ways you can make attribute-exclusive paths through parts of the game. Because you can't max out all the attributes(except with Broken Steel, but that perk was stupid anyway), you can't possibly gain access to every part of the game. That makes your choices in attributes important. Unfortunately for TES, magic's ability to augment your attributes breaks that system because you CAN max out everything

There is indeed true. But then Skyrim seems to have been built to cater to the "custom-players," and they did that by removing a bunch of the presets, including attributes. Which I like. Which is the purpose of this thread

But that's not racist either.
It's.
Just.
Not.
It's a natural occurrence with the Redguard race, that's all, if a Redguard wants to be a mage, nothing's stopping him, saying he couldn't be is racist.

His family might try.

Then his family's racist.

Dude...thank you so much for coming to my thread. It all makes sense now...that's what's different about Skyrim and Oblivion I could never put my finger on! I obviously noticed that there was a change in player control, but I never really realized how the core nature of the game changed as a result.

And I'm done. Just some friendly advice kid, don't go to Detroit.