So I let a friend borrow Skyrim this week (major d'oh for not realizing Hearthfire just came out *shrugs*), and so to fill the gap I decided to go back and play some Morrowind and Oblivion. Now, when I first started playing Skyrim, I thought that the removal of attributes was no big deal, but really the only possibly positive thing it did was simplify the leveling system. So here I am playing the older games, and I try to make an Altmer sorceror. Thing is that I try and use heavy armor, but my pansy elf was so weak he could hardly carry anything beyond his suit of armor and a handful of potions. So the obvious answer is: use skills governed by strength to raise your strength so you can carry more stuff! Oh, but wait, the sorceror class doesn't use one single strength-governed skill. Acrobatics it is!

My point is that in Skyrim I can start up a character of any race I choose and play whatever class I choose and be not that much worse off than any other race. I can have a high elf sorceror because there is no strength, so I start out with the same carrying capacity as any other race. If I want to be a Nord or Orc spellcaster, I'm not saddled with the Atronach stone (Mage stone doesn't give enough of a boost, and [censored] the Apprentice) because (with the exception of the Altmer) every race has the same starting mana.

Is the removal of attributes less realistic? While many seem to think so, I argue otherwise. The thing about attributes (at least in Morrowind and Oblivion) is that they are preset by your race. Do you really think that there was never an Orc born smart or a Wood Elf born strong (Words and Philosophy!) in the history of Tamriel? Starting a High Elf weaker than other races isn't realistic, it's racist. Does the removal of attributes make Skyrim less of an RPG? Arguable, but as I'm not a hardcoe RPGer I'm not in a position to argue, so I'll defer to the experts.

Overall, I'm playing Oblivion right now, and I am seriously not enjoying those attributes.

The oblivion attribute and major/minor skill system were ten years out of date, when they were implemented at the time. It's seems even worse in comparison.

Honestly, I think that Skyrim was kind of a "soft reboot" for the ES series, with a system that is simple, easy to understand, and fun for gamers. Then as the series goes on, they can reintroduce features people miss in a way that works, not in the needlessly complex, nonsensical manner that oblivion handled things.

Race is the main reason you think attributes make the game universe less believable?
What if I told you that it's not racist because they're not different races, they're different species.
Dogs have better ears and noses than humans, is that racist?

*reads signature*

That's Racist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyu2jAD6sdo

My nerdy but pompous Elf can't carry a lot of stuff? RACIST.

In the case of men, mer and beast, sure. But between Imperials, Nords, Bretons, and Redguards?

DAMN STRAIGHT!

Then you can say the people that made the lore are racist, or you can accept that all "races" of Nirn are actually separate species that have similaritaries.

You Elves are OP endgame. Not fair! Do you know the hardships that we have to endure to reach 100 strength and endurance, only to find ourselves being killed by mages with OP spells?

Removing them was not the answer, but keeping the oblivion system would have been worse. Just let people pick what scores go up by how much, don't create some convoluted system based around what you level up and how much.

Oh god, those modifiers! The horrors!

That's kind of what I'm saying. It's already established that Nords, Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards are all human (ergo, the same species) and Dunmer, Altmer and Bosmer are all Elves (ergo, the same species). It's fairly common in the real world to assign attributes to different percieved races (i.e.: stereotyping) which can be seen mirrored in the whole pre-set attributes thing.

I know, the Oblivion system offended me at a cellular level...


...

...

...okay it didn't but it was still dumb.

Indeed. But is that all that different from working on your health and stamina all game to be chewed up by high level mages with massive mana pools?

Ooooo, this!

Talking about mana pools, I hear that a certain Redguard has 50 million mana.

But it's not stereotyping.
It's just the lore.

Oh, totally missed something. When did I say it was the "race is the main reason [I] think attributes make the game universe less believable?" I didn't. I've just heard people argue that attributes made the game more realistic, so it was more of a preemptive strike than the "main reason."


Sorry dude, if that's a reference it is over my head. If you're talking about some actual NPC, never heard of him/her.

I was talking about my character.

It was the only reason you mentioned, so I assumed it was your only point.

Well then, let's clear that up:


I'm just saying I'm glad the attributes are gone, for the above reason (also, it wasn't the only thing I mentioned in that paragraph, I also metioned how it may or may not detract from the game as an RPG). Not to say that this is a bad tangent, in fact:


stereotype:
4. sociol a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows others to categorize them and treat them accordingly

Generalizations like "Orcs are less intelligent than other races (of mer)" or "Bretons are more frail than other races (of men)."

Attributes were never the problem of Oblivion.
Like many things people claim to be wrong with Oblivion its really just the level scaling thats doing that.

It's a matter of priorities. If you're OK with never using heavy armor with a Altmer or Bosmer and never being a pure Orc mage, then no, there isn't anything wrong with Oblivion. It's just that since Skyrim I feel caged, like if I want to be a certain class or use certain skills I'm limited in what races I can choose to create an effective character. That's my issue with the attributes in Oblivion and Morrowind.

But, as the definition states, stereotypes are a set of inaccurate generalizations, but they're true.
Aside from that, I've stated that each "race" is actually a different species, with man and mer races having genetic similarities.
But that would make sense.