Except speechcraft is not a radio signal broadcast at arrow/fireball range. Nor would they be very inclined to believe you. I do not think it's possible to fool them into believing you're not an outsider. It wasnt possible to fool the Dunmer into Morrowind. Dress any way you like, with as much speechrcraft as you like and they will still recognize you as an outsider. Fortunately the Dunmer simply disliked outsiders and didn't wan to kill/eat them on sight.

No, but that's why people invented signals for "don't shoot, I came to talk!". Which every group of more than two people uses in some way, simply to avoid friendly fire accidents.

Else no Forsworn could ever meet another Forsworn, since they would just start shooting at each other, assuming the other is an "outsider"


That's what Speechcraft is for - to make people believe what you're saying, even if you are lying.

Forsworn aren't in relations with any other society. Even if there was a Nordic signal of peace, they wouldn't recognize it. This isn't Feudal Europe, and even if it was the Forsworn wouldn't be involved in those things. The Forsworn do not attack their own kind because they are able to recognize them, but I already explained that. It is easy to recognize one of your own especially when they dress/act in a very specific manner which is unlike everyone else.

So all it took for the PC to be able to get near them (and try to initiate talks) is to dress (easy) and act (again, that's where a skill like Speechcraft comes in handy) like them?

With the CK it would take less than 5 minutes to set them as friendly.

No. They're not stupid. They won't just fall for it because you're wearing their clothes... just like the Dunmer of Morrowind never fell for you being anything but an outsider even if you were a Dunmer.

Baratan, I disagree with everything you say and don't feel like wasting my time stating the obvious in these forums, so i'll make it real short this time.


1. It is not true that Forsworn attack everyone like some kind of mad dogs that Nords want to make them look like. Obviously you have not talked to their king in Cidhna who sounds more reasonable than Ulfric and Stormcloaks.
They are not against Empire either, and as a matter of fact they entered negotiations with the Empire when they took over Markath and the surrounding area. But Ulfric charged the city like a madman and ruined everything. Of course that Forsworn don't want to negotiate with the Nords when Nords don't allow them to have any land. What's there to negotiate, Indian reservation?

Here:
http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/lore/forum/topics/cause-and-effect-of-the-forsworn-rebellion?commentId=6452022%3AComment%3A126260&xg_source=activity&groupId=6452022%3AGroup%3A11268


2. Yes there is such a thing as "Skyrim logic". Every fantasy world has a set of invented "laws" that try to be coherent and believable. That's why The Lord of the Rings doesn't have Orcs fighting Teletubbies and Sauron fighting Protoss space shifts.

3. You're setting double-standards (hypocrisy is running rampant in the forum so I'm not surprised, there's enough of it in Talos ban thread I made). You disagree with Forsworn recognizing the player as ally although every NPC in the game has foreknowledge of the player, and every NPC knows who shot the arrow next to them. If I shoot arrow near bandits they search for who did it. If I shoot arrow near neutral/ally NPCs they stand still and don't care. That's just how the game works. If I put on Forsworn armor, they will still attack me from a mile away.
I mean what the hell, how silly is this. If forsworn can't be allies why can Imperials and Stormcloaks be? Do they have a radio and photos of you?



If you don't like the idea of this thread I really don't understand what is the point of your participation here? This is not about how the official version of the game should look like, it's about a mod. You don't like it, don't use it. It's that simple.

Talk about wasting time...
1. Forsworn attack outsiders on sight. They are not mad dogs. I have met the King in Cidna mine. He is an individual and intelligent, however that does not change the fact that the Forsworn attack outsiders on sight. The Forsworn view the Reach as their land and anyone who is not one of them is a trespasser and trespassers must be killed. The King in Rags works with you because it is his best chance of escape. He isn't stupid. The Forsworn simply do not want anyone in their land, especially since Markarth has been taken from them. If these things weren't true - they wouldn't attack on sight.
2. That does not describe "Skyrim Logic". That describes a fantasy world with it's own set of laws. Logic is logic. Period. Inventing a term like "Skyrim Logic" doesn't help in an argument. Something is either logical or it isn't, even if some things are logical in Skyrim that aren't logical in real-life doesn't mean it's Skyrim Logic, it just means that the logic is based on the context of Skyrim. Look up Logic: Hint, it doesn't mean what you think it means.
3. Look up double-standard and hypocrisy, :Hint they do not mean what you think they mean. I disagree with the Forsworn recognizing the player as an ally because the player is not an ally of the Forsworn. Why should they rocognize the player as something he is not? That is not a double standard. You may join the Stormcloaks or the Imperial Legion and they will recognize you as an ally if you do. You may not join the Forsworn and therefor they will not recognize you as an ally because - You're not. They do not have outsider allies. The Stormcloaks and Imperials do not attack outsiders on sight. They may attack enemy forces they recognize, but that is not the same as attacking anyone who is not them. I'll say it for a 5th time, wearing Forswon armor obviously isn't enough to fool them into thinking you're one of them. Just like the Dunmer of Morrowind, the an outsider when they see one. Simply playing dress-up isn't enough to fool anyone.

Make up your mind. Are the Forsworn supposed to be an ally with the player or is the mod supposed to change them into being an ally of the player. They're two different statements. If you want a mod that changes them to allow outsider allies, that's great. But, that is not the same as arguing about what they should or should-not do according to "Skyrim Logic". Changing the Forsworn to accept outsiders is not "fixing" something, it's changing it. Changes are fine, but you should be able to recognize the difference between a fix and a change. The Forsworn attitude towards outsiders is intentional. It isn't broken, it can't be fixed - but it can be changed.

Not all Forsworn attack on sight. I've approached a small camp before and one of them simply raised his weapon and said "that's close enough", but he didn't attack me until I actually went right up in his face. As for the events with their king making them friendly, there is one cave that the king retreats to that is full of friendly forsworn, Radiant Story made me "rescue" a prisoner from that cave and they didn't even attack as me and the prisoner walked right out the front

Forsworn and the Rest of the world is about as Mutually Exclusive as Imperial and Stormcloaks.

The only mod that would make it work is that The rest of the world now attack you the same way Foresworns attacked you before you "switched" factions.

Skyrim needs faction outfits like New Vegas that make everyone react to you as a member of that faction. I'm sure that will be modded in before long.

No, not just because of the clothes.

The clothes are just one of elements needed for a successful infiltration (or joining!). The others are being knowledgeable enough about the manners and mannerisms (reading up on it, sneaking and observing how they act, capturing one and getting him or her to spill it out, seducing one and so on) and having a high Speechcraft to be able to convincingly pass as one of them.

All of these elements should work together to make them think you belong to them. If that's in fact true is a whole another matter ...

That's all fine and dandy, but that's a far cry from joining them. You may, through great effort, possibly fool them into not killing you on sight, but that isn't quite the same as joining them. Since they're a relatively small faction it's possible they may somewhat all know eachother. A simple question of "Who's son are you?" could easily blow even the best cover. Still. That's infiltrating them. Not Joining them. Joining them must essentially make the player hostile to the rest of the world. The Forsworn and the rest of the world are mutually exclusive. It's one or the other. They're not like the Companions where you can just "join up".

It would be great to be able to side with them, or at least sympathize with them so they don't consider you an enemy. After helping the King in Rags, I actually felt bad/guilty for killing all the Forsworn who attacked me later. Especially considering I'm a Breton and so am distantly related to them. I actually wish for a mod where you could help the Forsworn regain the Reach. Take over Markarth etc.

You know what? It's their mod and they have a right to make it believable or not. If you don't like it don't download it. Pretty damn easy logic.

You didn't have to effing debate the merits of the mod or even approve of it. It's not your place to do so. It's up to the mod creator ultimately. That's the beauty of Skyrim being a single-player only game. It doesn't affect you and it shouldn't be any of your concern what another person does with their mods.

/end of debate.

I wasn't rejecting the mod at all. I was rejecting that the Forsworn are the same as the Companions. This is a discussion forum, thus expect discussion. When someone says things like "You can join the Companions, so why not the Forsworn" I may decide to respond to them with why they're not the same thing. You're more than welcome to ignore my posts if they upset you so much.

I have no problem with any mod, much less a Forsworn related mod, but to say that they should be just like a guild or that Bethesda made a mistake in making them unjoinable is just begging for argument.

Did I say they shouldn't make a mod or how they should make it? Absolutely not. Nice try putting those words into my posts though. Actually, not nice try.

How do they ever get new members if they attack strangers on sight? If you're in, then you're in. Period.

The only new members the Forsworn get are born Forsworn. They do not recruit outsiders, just like the Ashlanders.

This is what I get for responding before playing through the questline.

Honestly I personally enjoy walking into their camps and slaughtering the lot of them.

And the saddest thing is they think they're people...

At least it isn't a spoiler. More or less background information.

The Forsworn are a barbaric civilization of native bretons. They believe the Reach is their kingdom and all outsiders are invaders. They're not interested in doing anything but killing those invaders. If they were open to negotiation things would be different.

They're like an angry version of Vvardenfell's ashlanders.

Well it's possible and it sounds like a plan for a great r'ping mod. I hope you give it a try.

There are a few simple ways around that (among other things, deciding that the character was in fact born a Forsworn, but abducted or orphaned, and grew up not knowing of it), but a common one used through the ages by all such groups is very simple to mod: Adoption.

And this still leaves the possibility that the character is not joining, but infiltrating - but from an outsider's perspective, there is little difference.

When the Nords overtook the realm they treated it as any other conquered territory, subjecting the native population to harsh treatment as a conquered people. It's little surprise that in 4E 174 they took advantage of the Great War to overthrew their Nordic rulers.

What's often neglected and is certainly not apparent in the game's scope is that for those two years the foresworn allegedly governed peacefully and fairly. There were some reprisals against the upper echelon of Nord power comprising of the landed nobility and task masters but the majority of the Nord population was unmolested. In fact, by 176 the Forsworn had entered into peace negotiations with the Empire hoping to be recognized as an independent Kingdom under the aegis of the Imperials.

Before any treaty could be concluded, Ulfric raised a militia and stormed Markarth. It was done without imperial assistance

http://theskyrimblog.ning.com/group/lore/forum/topics/cause-and-effect-of-the-forsworn-rebellion?commentId=6452022%3AComment%3A126260&xg_source=activity&groupId=6452022%3AGroup%3A11268
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_%22Madmen%22_of_the_Reach


So much about "they're killing everyone on sight". Can I have my thread back now?

That's all fine and dandy, and that isn't being ignored or neglected - but that time is passed. They're no longer controlling their kingdom peacefully & fairly. They have been displaced by Ulfric and the Nords as you said, and the Empire did nothing to aid them... which is what brings us to where we are now. They hate outsiders. None of that means they're not violent towards outsiders now - because clearly, they are. They're not madmen, or dogs, but they're out for blood no less.

I think for a Forsworn mod to work lore-wise, it would need to be like a Dagoth-ur mod for Morrowind and be a completely alternate experience. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks would never accept the Forsworn controlling the reach and would always be hostile. I'm not sure the Empire would be pleased if the Forsworn attacked Markarth, but I know for certain the rest of the Nords would highly disagree. The Forsworn and the rest of the world are like the Stormcloaks and the Imperials. You can't be loyal to both.