Well thats why they choose this era to place the game. Besides a few things its pretty open. As I already said we don't really know what the lore is yet, so rather hard to say what does and does not fit.

You're saying they can't tell a profitable subsidiary or product line from an unprofitable one. In other words, they're absolute [censored] idiots.

Call it what you will, but I seriously doubt they will bother to differentiate between TES the RPG and TES the MMORPG in their funding allocation decisions. Remember what they are; bean-counters. They are only interested in the bottom line. They do not care about franchise or IP or gamers or developers or our love for a certain property. They only care about profit. They aren't idiots, because they know how to make money, and they'll do whatever they can to do just that, even if it means sacrificing something we love.

It's not the balance that worries me. It's pretty clear that Matt Firor was brought in and was told (or he decided and stuck to the idea) to handle PVP exactly the same way as he did in DAoC, without even considering whether that would make sense in TES. Which of course, it doesn't.

Did you play Skyrim? A Nord would happily bloody another Nord's face over internal politics, let alone external. There's a fantastic quote from an in-game book in the TES series: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept-letter-8 Just because two characters might be Nords, doesn't mean they will agree with each other / share the same goals and ambitions / share the same animosity or approval to a specific race, etc. Take a stroll through Windhelm and see how differently the Dunmer are treated from one Nord to the next. The majority dislike them, some hate them, some actually go out of their way to help and support them. It's also an Elder Scrolls staple to see races spreading out from their home province - you'll find Redguards living in Skyrim, Altmer living in Morrowind, and Orcs living in Cyrodiil. TESO ignores all of this, and tells us that all the Nords are in favour of an alliance with the Dunmer, and vice versa. Suddenly whole races share like minds, and a core element of Tamriel's immersion, believability, and maturity is cast aside.

It's not the balance that bothers me. It's the fact that established lore and a core theme has been ignored to ensure balance. I would have much prefered a world where we, as players, are free to form our own alliances. Where instead of fighting for some faction we don't really know much about, to put some random player on the throne (who truly will be random, as it's assigned by contribution, so we will be clueless as to who we're fighting for until we've won), we would fight alongside a group of like-minded individuals for a purpose we all agree on, and place a faction leader who we trust and communicate regularly with on the throne.

Balance wouldn't be too much of an issue, because as you pointed out earlier if one faction becomes too strong then others will temporarily unite in order to put that powerful faction back in its place. This system allows for a lot more political intrigue, with backstabbing, moles, and shifting alliances. But apparently they didn't give PVP much thought in regards to how it fits into the world and established lore, and forced a three faction approach on TESO purely because "It worked in X game, so it must work here too."

Well first this takes place 1000 years before Skyrim so yeah... doesn't really apply to what races would get along and how based on how they did 1000 years ago. and secondly the whole reason for them picking this era to place the game in is so they can add new lore. Also just to clarify its not just Zenimax doing whatever they want with the Lore, no its Bethesda checking off on it as well. So if your concern is for the lore then its unfounded because the people who make the Lore are the ones making the lore in this game. We haven't seen all of it either yet just bits and pieces, so if you trusted and enjoyed the lore for the other games, theres no real reason you won't for this game either.

It may be set 1000 years before Skyrim, but if you look at the history of TES you would see that over 2000 years before TESO takes place the Dunmer were fighting with everything they had in order to force the Nords back out of Morrowind. This isn't some recent feud that TESO predates. It's an ancient long-standing hatred.

And of course Bethesda are going to 'check it off'. The suits already decided they wanted this game, and clearly Firor is hell bent on his three-faction idea to ensure fair gameplay and balance (in a gritty and unfair world, but hey-ho, he's the boss). Bethesda can't say 'no'. They can only do their best to keep it from being completely senseless. In this case, setting it immediately after the Akiviri invasion gives some slight semblance of logic to the idea. I say slight, because 1) This is set after the Akiviri threat has subsided, so alliances are no longer needed and old hatreds would definitely re-ignite, and 2) again, whole races do not share like minds.

This reeks of forcing a story to wrap around a game mechanic. Amateur hour at its finest. An equivalent example of just how monolithically stupid this forced factions idea is: Imagine if the Game of Thrones tv series creators had said this prior to airing the series: "We realize that the books portrayed Westeros as a country rife with civil war and internal conflicts, but we thought it would be easier for the audience to follow if the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, and Greyjoys all allied in order to fight against the Wildlings of the North, and the Targaryen threat rising in the East."

oh come on stop the conspiracy theories of "Firor wants three Faction PvP and poor Bethesda is forced into it" thats just silly.

Its a design decision that i as an MMORPG player can understand. People who say PvP all over the place is fun havent played too many MMORPGs. I like griefing, i admit that i like ruining other peoples days i like ganking and i like the occasional open world battles. The Problem however is that its even more immersion breaking to be ganked right in your home country by the same group of 3 people. For most people, PvP all over the place is NOT fun. And no it will never be as it is in EVE because this will never be a true sandbox, even regular TES is no true sandbox.

It also is never any tactical. It will always be a random, as they call it, "Zerg" or ganking. And no you cannot change that by adding capturable stuff that gives boons to the players in the regular PvE zones. Blizzard tried that in Burning Crusade and nobody even bothered with it. And as it stands the only PvP thats taken seriously in WoW is Arena (Wich is already pretty bad and boring to begin with) and the most played one is the Battlegrounds, and even that just for Gear Grinding.

You know what worked? 1v1v1 in Border Zones. This worked in DAoC and it works in the PvP Area in GW2. if you dont like it thats personal Preference. But i can fully understand that design decision.
Also "forced" Faction based PvP confined to strict PvP zones are not a.) as immersion breaking as you think and b.) are even more likeley to tell cool war stories. Ask ANYONE who played either Planetside or DaoC and he/she will probably tell you quite a few nice tales of heroism in that "forced" PvP.

As for the Factions this has been discussed to death and i wont repeat myself over and over again. All i say here is. Did you see the faction pride in Planetside? Chances are we might want to have somethign simmilar to this.

Agreed.

Battling in DAoCs frontier zones were the best pvp experiences I ever had. It was completely organic.

Did you play Lineage 2 at end game? Those castle sieges were nothing short of master pieces in tactical warfare. That was a game with multiple different races, but with factions formed by players regardless of race.

As I said before, I don't disagree that three factions would be awesome for PVP and create amazing war stories. I have no doubt about that. But it IS going against an established core element of the Elder Scrolls. It disregards internal conflicts and pretends they don't exist; it means any Redguards living in Skyrim should apparently be killed on sight; and it means exploration is severely limited. It would be like my Game of Thrones example above, or like TESV only allowing you to play as a Nord, Dunmer, or Argonian, and only being able to meet those races in that province.

They say they're working hard to create a great RPG first and foremost, but they're breaking that with forced factions. I would have much prefered they show off their creative talent by creating solutions for the problems with an open PVP system that you listed, instead of forcing the world to bend around a three-faction system.

First of all if you want to convince me of anything. Dont mention Game of Thrones in your post.

It does none of those things you say.
Who says there wont be inner struggles? They actually openly stated there WILL be struggles within the Ebonheart Pact.
There probably will be Redguard in Skyrim who knows, players wont be able to do that. Why?

Because as it turns out the Game decides that you are a Member of the Faction. Like in Skyrim it decides HEY YOU ARE THE DRAGONBORN. You cant be "not" the Dragonborn in Skyrim. Sure you can act like youre not the Dragonborn. Just like you can still not join PvP. But Dragons will still hate your guts in Skyrim, and youll still absorb their souls. And as a Member of one of these Factions. The enemy will also hate your guts no matter if you admit it or not.

Its not a good justification. But better than just have open Factions for everyone. Youre simply WRONG about putting Fluff before gameplay. TES never did that. In fact TES always came up with Fluff that explained the Gameplay, not the other way around. First and foremost this is a Game. And no this is not an Argument to justify silly stuff like no first person option cause thats doable. But if i know one thing about PvP, and ive played alot of it, its that it will never work the way you want it.

Oh yeah and i didnt play Lineage 2 because i dont play Asian games but from what i know its a Grindfest with the occasional PvP. Besides the point its actually qutie the opposit of Elder Scrolls.
I get your point, but these things were just a few occasional castle sieges from what ive heard from people that played it. What they are going for is PvP thats going on all the time. Not just stuff that happens occasionally and takes a LOT of time to pull off because you 1. need a large enaugh guild to do it 2. need the organization to actually get anyone playing at that time and in the right place and 3. the actual rewards werent all that amazing from a gameplay standpoint.

in a designated PvP zone. These things just happen on the fly. Generaly anything that REQUIRES a LARGE guild to work. Is bad game design.

Look, point was THIS game will have its own Lore. That Lore will explain why the races have allied together. You can disagree with that Lore all you want buts its the fact of the matter.

Also your Game of Thrones anology doesn't really fit. Each of those things you listed is a "faction" and just like in TESO they are all going against each other. Only difference is that in TESO there are only 3 (plus 1 NPC faction) and in Game of Thrones there's like 7.

you just shocked me.
but yess i have to agree with you on that matter.

First of all, you two are awesome for debating so well. We're all passionate about this, and I do respect your opinions. Only time will tell how this all plays out I guess

The player is forced down one specific path based on their race. Even if there are internal struggles playing out within, say, Skyrim, the fact that the player cannot join those struggles is an issue. The fact that we cannot decide to go against our faction and join one of the others is a cardinal sin, in my opinion, for a TES game. There's no choice involved at all.

You aren't forced to join the Imperials in Skyrim if you're an Imperial yourself. You could join the Stormcloaks if you wanted. Legate Rikke is a Nord fighting against the Stormcloaks. Heck, you could even decide that both factions are insane and decide to ignore them both and let them get on with it. Or if you really wanted, I suppose you could make it your mission to kill every Imperial and Stormcloak you come across, meting out your own form of justice for the land and its people. It's your choice, and that's the important part.

If you don't start the main quest, you don't become the Dragonborn, and dragons don't spawn. I've only ever become the Dragonborn once, with my first character, and even then I had played the game for 30 hours before becoming Dragonborn and triggering the dragons to start spawning. Until then no dragons appear, and no-one recognizes you as the Dragonborn. It's always been that way in TES games - you could choose not to be the Nerevarine in Morrowind, and Oblivion Gates wouldn't appear in Oblivion until you had started the main quest.

Removing choice from the player really goes against the core of The Elder Scrolls experience. Forcing me to play a Nord who agrees with an alliance with the Dunmer is a bad idea.

PVP was the heart of the game. It wasn't something that happened occasionally, the entire game revolved around it. There were 7 different castles, one for each territory, and controlling a castle gave you power over its territory allowing you to set tax rates for the region and manage its defences. It would be like TESO allowing every province to be warred over, but keeping Cyrodiil as the main prize. Lineage 2 had Aden castle as its crown jewel - the equivalent of TESO's White Gold Tower.

As I said above to Sordak, thanks for debating so openly
I was implying that TESO's Nords, Dunmer, and Argonians, are like GoT's Lannisters, Starks, and Baratheons. They've been established as being at each other's throats, warring repeatedly in the past, standing at an uneasy truce for the most part but never trusting of each other. At times of war and chaos, those 'factions' are quick to anger and rekindle old hatreds. So in Game of Thrones we're treated to a spectacle of seeing these 'factions' war amongst each other, fall apart internally, backstab, lie, cheat, and steal their way to power. In TESO, the war and chaos is simplified down to the different 'factions' (the races) joining up with one another to create a level playing field.

I guess it all comes down to what you prefer. For fair, balanced gameplay where you're guaranteed a fair fight most of the time, forcing these alliances makes sense. It keeps forum whining about faction balance to a minimum. But if you want a more realistic and dynamic story to be told through gameplay, I'd rather they took the realistic approach and allowed players to really experiment with the chaos of war. Allow them to forge their own alliances, plot against their own kinsmen for wealth and promises of power, ignore the combat side of war altogether and seek profit by selling weapons to all.

Essentially, my argument is this: TES has always been about player choice and freedom. Forced factions severely limits that.

Ok where do i start. First things first. We do not KNOW yet if you cannot play these inner struggles. These will mainly be quests and its already been stated that you will actually get to decide the outcome of quite a few quests (something we didnt have an awfull lot in the singleplayer games) so id say we actually let that point out till we see more of the game. as it stands we know they said struggles within the factions are gonna be in we dont know in what form so we cannot actually debate about that.

Secondly well you can still learn words of power from the word walls and in oblivion youre not realy the chosen one anyway. In Morrowind Azura kinda mentiosn the whole youre the chosen one thing in the intro so yeah no real debating with that.
Of course you can refuse to acknowledge beeing in this faction. But when you walk up, as a Nord Warrior, to an Elve he will most likeley reckognize you as an enemy, same as in Morrowind if you walk up to Dagoth Ur he will reckognize you as the Nerevarine even if youve never spoken to Caius Cosades in the whole game and therfore never initiated the main Quest. There is a lore reason for that, as Pangscar already pointed out wether or not you like that lore does not realy matter.
Also nobody is forcing you to play a Nord that Agrees to be in alliance with the Dunmer. You can still hate his guts. But if you play the PvP youre in the same Faction like him, you can still hate him. But you know in real life if you join the Army you cant start shooting your comrads because they dont like the same sports team as you do. Hell i played a Stormcloak in Skyrim. But hated Ulfric. i thought he was right with the whole civil war thing. But i still thought he was a weakling and a coward.

The last part you pointed out doesnt realy work that way as weve already seen all of these Factions working together previously. Its not like they are at war at that time and now Forced together in an Alliance for no reason...

thats just my take on it. Of course it limits Freedom. And hell id be pissed too if i couldnt play with my buddies because they were playing a Race thats not in my Faction. But still thats how they have things going, its how it is in the lore right now and it makes sense from a Gameplay standpoint.


As for Lineage again: well you see. this still doesnt do well against my point. You still need a large Organized guild. In the end these battles are not very numerous, those battles are not connected to one another (therfore not tactical on a larger scale) and only a tiny percentage of players are ever doing them)
TESO is going to have a large tactial PvP system that will let anyone that is willing to do so participate. Wich, if you ask me, is awsome!

and I agree 100%..for the Single player games.

For an MMO in order to both maintain balance and keep things interesting you can only have so much freedom. Sure in a perfect world a sandbox type MMO that works would be great but thats not whats being built here. TESO will be more of a themepark MMO and with that comes certain restrictions. Restrictions that do make more sense in an MMO setting than they would in a single player setting.

So I guess my main pint of contention will always be that just because this MMO is a ES game doesn't mean it absolutely has to follow exactly along with how past games have been made, especially because this game is an MMO and past games have been single players games. So yes certain aspects will be and need to be different. Its doesn't make it any less of an ES game it just makes it a different type of one.

as ive pointed out earlier. TES games always had restrictions. Just different ones. Restrictions on Borders, what Factions you could join and wich would always be hostile even if there is no lore reason for it (dark brotherhood in morrowind, forsworn in skyrim to name a few)
Gameplay always goes first in TES, then they establish lore to back it up (awsome lore that is) hell thats why we have the warp in the west.