Hm, so people are missing ESO? My grandmother out in the country in France that does not even know how to type has heard about this game.

You have to live under a rock to miss it. And yes, you are white knighting, because you have everything to gain and others don't.

I don't know Dunmer, the biggest MMO this decade is hard to miss being spammed everywhere.

So run around as a Breton, buy imperial looking armor and say that you are in fact an Imperial!11

100% the exact same game experience as the Imperial who joins Daggerfall...

Again if the racials are nothing special then it actually is just a skin you buy nothing more, no actual CONTENT is behind a paywall, there are no special quests for you nor are there zones only you can see...

"Leaning towards pay to win."

It's good to see that, in this world of chaos and constant change, the gaming community remains constant in its ability to exaggerate and twist the meaning of a word or phrase.

No they aren't they are just passive very slight boosts most aren't even worth getting if they don't give it to you especially for pvp. Another race isn't content, content is experience, its just an aesthetic difference and they don't get any content you can't do with any race.

For the umpteenth time, it is the very principle that ZOS thinks this is okay is what I don't support. I rarely have ever played Imperial, but I'm not just going to let companies think it is now okay to make us pay for races. And thinking of races as aesthetic rather than content is up for debate. In my opinion they are content because they add to the game other than a look. And the racial's wont be nothing, if the store page is to be believed then Imperials are a full fledged race complete with their own skills and such. And if they aren't and are merely a skin, then I feel bad for all those who bought the CE because then they were mislead.

ZOS could at least have the [censored] class to allow us to play all available races with the base game, but no, they were so strapped for cash that they had to stick one behind a paywall. It's a dangerous precedent to support.

Who says the racials are nothing special? We dont know. No one has played an Imperial we dont know what they have.

There is also anothe rpart of the whole marketing blurb that is getting lost.

Those two little words..."and more". And more what? What we know is bad enough, so people arent even bothering to speculate what 'and more' means.

What if 'and more' entails all sorts of things that NO ONE who didnt buy the CE edition or updated a pre order gets to see?

Is that still OK? For a subscription based game with a box price.

Its THEIR fault, they got a lot of backlash for their subscription rhetoric, and how they justified it. Now this. Hey if it were buy to play like GW2 or any other B2P game no problem at all with this. But theyre taking the WHOLE pie. Theyre offering a subscription mindset (to those with small brains) and selling the 'we are going to update the game regularly' card, then theyre also 'forcing' people to spend an extra 20 bucks to get all the content. Hey have some balls charge 80 bux and give everyone everything. But I am sure in their twisted heads that would look 'greedy'. LOL Or just give Imperials to everyone like ANY sub game would.

Its the principal as well as the precedent. Theyre starting off with a huge headstart here. if they get away with this then they find it a lot easier to make those 4-6 week updates take 12-16 weeks. It also allows them to charge for things that arent just 'fun stuff'. It also completely erases the whole 'no pay gate' crap they shoveled at us months ago.

IF YOU PAY EXTRA REGARDLESS OF WHEN OR HOW, AND YOU GET MORE FOR IT, ITS A PAY GATE.

How hard is that for people to understand. The real beauts are the guys saying 'well yea if you pay more you should get more' . LMAO yeah in a free to play game not a subscription based one.

right - right. Rings of mara as explained by this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G4CFCU0fWM

They are bonuses to experience and what not. Not a level playing field just paying for the box and the subscription. That is the start of it.

What is funny though is that people so wanted they ability to play any race in any alliance they are blind to the price tag. Rubes.

Yes, Yes , Yes +++

To be clear I voted no on both - not because I wouldn't want the features, but because I don't want them that way.

[edit] Also weren't imperials going to be NPCs as part of endgame?

Next we will have cash shops for playing golden saint, etc.

The racials will probably be similar to the other races and follow closely with the racials from previous games (Imperials had pretty crap racials for combat).

It is only a pay gate if the only way to get it is through paying. They very well could be earned through playing the game as neither the Imperial nor play any race in any faction is said to be exclusive. Before people start calling it things and grasping so hard, they could at least wait for more info that they know will come.

You do realize nearly every MMO released with a CE has had some sort of XP boost item. I literally cannot remember the last MMO CE that didn't offer a xp boost item at launch. That item does not give any advantage in combat. All it is is a small time saver.

We do not know if it is an actual paygate because we do not know if you can earn the things in game. It could be like SWTOR did where you can unlock them at level 50. If you can earn them in game it is not a paygate.

skills and such is actually ONLY a small bunch passive abilities that really dont have much effect at all, the only thing they will really slightly change outside of very specialized builds is your point allocation... and then again with the "all races playable on all factions" thing pretty much all specialized builds are already taken care of so even as a min maxer who really cares for that 0,0005% more effectiveness its a none issue.

(all this assumes of course that the devs didnt go [not so intelligent mode] and gave them just a different combination of already existing passives or something completely in line with existing ones and nothing more powerful)

This isn't the first subscription based game that has done this though. Hell I've seen subscription based games that every retailer had it's own pre-order bonus if you want to talk about greedy. And people bought 6 or 7 copies to get all the bonuses. I already mentioned a game that was subscription base and that you had to buy for like 50 bucks at the time that had a extra race only for those who paid more. So yeah nothing new, and I'm pretty sure if that game had been a more polished finished product it would of survived as a sub game even with those bonuses.

I mean I can understand people being upset, but really stop acting like this is anything new, everything they are offering that we know about so far has been done before including the extra race.

If you are still upset then fine but reading this thread it's like some people think this is the first game to ever pull this crap. Personally I'm use to it, hell I've bought single player games that locked out whole levels unless you bought the CE or forced you to pay for extra characters individually. I personally find that [censored] more upsetting then anything ESO is offering.

Uggh gross then.

Why support that?

Because it is not an advantage. It doesn't mean that you have a leg up on people your same level, it is also worthless at level 50. In fact while leveling it could even make you weaker since you lack the stats from an item that would give you stats for combat. All it is is a time saving item.

Well I meant why support the company by paying them for something like this?

I already know the answer. Rubes will pay.

Some will pay them because they like the game and want to support it, they dont really care for the extra xp at all.

Some actually want this item so they can be 2 hours faster at cap level then the other guy.

Some.. I actually have no more reasons to give

I don't even know how to respond to that as it is so closed minded and insults a lot of people.

I am allowed to play Argonian in Daggerfall Covenant.

*happy_lizard_dance*

So ESO will:

1) Have a high initial cost

2) Have a subscription model

3) Support content gated behind a monetary cost

4) Likely support cosmetic micro-transactions

Yeah, totally fine. It's not like I expect the full game when I pay 60 bucks plus a $15 monthly fee or anything.

You really have no proof of 3 as it is entirely likely that Imperials and the ability to play as any race in any faction could be unlocked by simply playing the game.

Thats just it what people DO know they cant talk about because of an NDA still in place even though theyre selling the game already. And this that we dont know anything about and yes still selling the game already.

It stinks.

People continually cite all these failed games and games that clearly were released with the intent to go immediately to free to play as 'evidence' that 'all games do this'. Yeah all games with an agenda.

There are many reasons why people sell stuff that cant be talked about by people who might have some insight. There are also reasons why people sell things that no one knows all that much about. There are also reasons why someone might add a lot of stuff for a seemingly 'small' increase in price when the first two are also a factor. Add in the magical 20-25% off coupons people have found and its a smorgasbord of 'deals' and 'perks'.

But if what you say is true and they do offer this (for a price in the store) then what was the preorder bonus again?

So it is either a pre order bonus and one that is basically forcing you to pre order to get it. Or it is a cash shop item placed there now to try and hide the fact that it is a cash store item. But if the Imperial race is put in the store and it costs 20 bux (the difference between the standard and Imperial additions, then what?)

NONE of those things are exactly positive.

Whether the race is viable or not is a completely moot point. It could be impotent, the fact is theyre 'selling' it. Either it is 'worth' it or it isnt'. If it is then its a pay wall item. if it isnt then its a scam on people who dont know any better. But again that really doesnt matter the fact is that you pay EXTRA for it, either now or later. If you can get it for free in the game, then people who spent 20 bux will be pissed, even though now they claim it isnt a big deal. But if they feel like they got duped or spent money on something they didnt need to the tunes will chance.

Any and all these scenarios are possible thats what happens when games switch gears and do things they claim they wont do, because you never know what they might possibly do down the road.

My completely unbiased opinion is this game was meant to be released as a buy to play game. But the marketing people said release it as a sub game and milk all that you can out of it. Test the waters with clearly pay gated items and see who balks and who buys. Then go for as long as we can increasing the pressure until we reach a point where we just flip the switch and drop the sub model. This all in conjunction with releasing a partially completed game that will be released with a plethora of bugs and not a fraction of the content people think it is going to have.

This move has cash grab written all over it, as does offering pre releases before the NDA is even lifted as well as had a chance to see the game. There are reason why companies do that as well.

There is absolutely nothing positive anyone can say about this. The only people who like it are the guys who like pay to win games in the first place, and like I said if they suddenly realized they bought something other people got for free they would be the ones [censored]ing.

You have no proof that the contrary is true either. it would seem more likely that this is not true if we take the history of MMO payment models into account. Why worry about F2P when we can just start off that way AND have a subscription? Yay

Calling a behavior of supporting pay models being like a rube is not insulting people directly. Just the behavior. It is not meant to be directed at any one individual.

Agreed 100%

The market and what people actually are willing to pay for will have more say in this game than any purist point of view or developer vision of the ideal MMO.

There is a distinct difference in having content options up front and cash shop options once in game. Unless the sneak in additional content after purchase (which would be the underhanded thing to do if they promised otherwise) this is still a purchase+ sub option.

No matter how you look at it the bonuses in these packages are just that: bonuses. ZOS just decided to break the mold and add perks never offered before. Does not having an Imperial race option limit you from content in game? If so how much (only thing I can think of is if there are Imperial recipes and if not accessible to crafters without purchase). You still make a single initial purchase and later pay a sub. Now if more bundles are offered later one must decide if allowing or not allowing an upgrade is only fare or is effectively a cash shop option.

This indeed pushes the definition of what a digital perk is but offering it strictly within the initial purchase is the key difference here I believe.

No where do I mention having it available in store, I mention unlocking them from playing the game like SWTOR did with being able to play all the races no matter the faction.

Also not all CE and pre-order items are exclusive. They are often just things that are time savers or unlock things early. There is zero pay to win here. That mount is only exclusive in appearance. You get it either for that or the fact that it is free in game (no need to farm money). The rings, they become useless at 50 and are likely weaker stat wise than the gear you will get through normal means. The only thing is the Imperial race and the play any race in any faction, both which I do not like, but I'm waiting for actual info on them before flying off the handle, because it could end up not being a pay gate at all. There is so little info, that drawing a conclusion as fact right now is simply paranoia.

You are right, you never know down the road, but that is irrelevant as even without this they could switch gears just as easily.

If there is no evidence to either why say it all then?

And no Rube is insulting no matter if it is aimed at a group or directly at people.

I never used the words pay to win. I said for a SUBSCRIPTION based model its wrong.

Its something that is exclusive and may or may not open up other things down the line. We can speculate on that all we want, but it wouldnt surprise me if they added a PAY FOR quest line that is exclusive for all the people who pre ordered. Then what? THAT isnt content either? The excuse will be that if you dont have an Imperial (a paid for item in the first place) then you shouldnt worry if I (someone who did pay for the Imperial) pays yet again for a quest associated with it.

So then it becomes people defending the negative practice based on a false ideal.

So someone pays 20 bux extra for the class/race, then say another 20 bux for the quests or area or whatever 'special' Imperial based content entails. Is that OK? Should my 60 bucks and 15 bux a month entitle me to that? Or does their 80 bucks, 15 bucks a month and another 20 bucks entitle them to it? Why do both have to pay the 15 bucks a month? because they will?

Like I said I am fine with this game doing this as a buy to play game. Doesnt even have to be full on free to play. But if youre asking some people to spend more money than other ON TOP of a sub then youre just greedy.

I was on the fence, this tipped me off it and buried me under a pile of dirt. Not because I am outraged but because I now know down the line I am more than likely going to be able to play the game (in a much better condition than it will be released in) and get all the content the guys who are paying now helped get released, and not have to pay a dime for it. I did that with Swotor too. But even for free that game isnt worth playing. Wont say that about ESO, but by the time it doe make that transition the population could be non existant, then it will be just another ES title, solo player basically but with a chat feature.

I honestly have no idea how I feel about this. I was already confused about which faction I was going to play in, but I want to be a Dunmer, so I guess that's a plus. I don't really hate the idea behind making the Imperial race as a CE item, everyone assumed you wouldn't be able to play them anyways, it will make some people happy.

Honestly, even though i was an advocate about faction locking, I like the way they did this, but I can't see in the future and I have no idea how this will play out. There won't be a tremendous amount of people who preorder, so in the grand scheme of things, we won't see a million Nords fighting for AD, but there's still the ability for some to play different races in different factions. The thing I'm concerned about is it being offered in a cash shop later on. I'm not against it entering a cash shop, I'm just afraid of anything other than cosmetics and aesthetics being implemented in the cash shop.

I also really hate their presentation of this. They left way too many details out, and left too much unknown, they have plenty of ways to stab anyone who preorders in the back by not giving details. Imagine the playerbase who didn't preorder complain about not being able to choose their race and faction and ZOS giving it to them free of charge. This is one of the things I wouldn't mind them never offering again, making it unlockable in-game, or worst case scenario charging for it. But giving it for free? They missed their chance to preorder, it's as simple as that. It reminds me of the Legacy threads for FFXIV, you missed your chance to support ZOS by preordering, you also should miss the rewards.

Another thing I think should be addressed is the overall negative opinion of this game. Inside the forums, it's overly positive, and I love the atmosphere it brings, but outside? A majority don't see this game succeeding. Sure a huge portion of them are "WoW clone? wtf not buying." but there's also a discontented group that's tried the game, tested it extensively, and aren't at all impressed, even TES fans. Leaving out details on such a thin ice situation like this really doesn't help the reputation. From what I've seen, ZOS' interaction with the players, their feedback intake, and customer service are absolutely phenomenal, but not everyone has had the chance for that to rub in, and they're treated like any other MMO. Not taking things to the uttermost caution on something like this shows a really poor move on their part.