this is how I play it, on max difficulty, being hit by a power attack from a bandit /draugr / normal attack from troll will almost one hit kill me, unless im in heavy armour and blocking. This means I have to rely on my skill as a player to dodge and maneuver about the enemy, utilising shield bashes and timing quick bursts of sprint to dodge under a power attack and behind an enemy. This makes the game extremely satisfying for me.

I agree with that totaly, very good ideas abotu the crafting but we we have to pay mroe attention to also revamping some of the perks to adapt them to a realism mod. but as stated good items should be mroe expansive. There should be this feeling of standing in a shop and seeing an item that you want to buy but you grab into your pockets to only find a few coins, so you have to do some adventuring to afford to next good thing!

also on the second post, agreed, master difficulty is brilliant, i wonder if there will be the possibility of adding a sort of evade animation that one could use to dodge more elegantly

That last point of course makes sense however its not supposed to be as realistic as in 1 arrow kills you, or similar, it simply shall increase the immersion by adding factors that you would have to consider in real life too, i remember for example a good mod from oblivion that was fairly unpopular, called the hypothermia mod. could be very well implemented into skyrim to give combined with other more realistic tweaks a better, richer and mroe immersive expierience for THOSE WHO WANT IT (sorry caps )

in Morrowind I could encounter an Ogrim at just about any level, same goes for other higher-level creatures the level-scaling of Oblivion is notorious for being so badly implemented that it ruined the entire gaming-experience for most people, just playing vanilla
or you were perhaps one of the (singled out, non-existent ones) who never encountered a low-life bandit with glass-armor?
Morrowind had some genuinely dangerous areas where you did not go, until you were high level enough to battle the foes awaiting there
sure there was a level-scale in the works in the background, but it is widely regarded as the best alternative the series has yet to turn out (post-Daggerfall)

Oblivion is by far the easiest Elder Scrolls to date and there are numerous threads/reviews/rants about it's level-scaling system and how you as a player never truly get to feel superior towards your foes, since they'll merely level up with you

Skyrim has this issue, as well, although it's not as noticable, it's still an issue
the enemies you encounter basically stay at your level - sure you can encounter a giant and get your face smashed in, but apart from that there's really not much of a challenge going on here
at the start of the game you are given lousy weaponry/armor, so that you won't ever feel as if though you're way superior to your enemies

I strongly recommend you check up on your "facts" before you start throwing opinions about

as for the "crippling of options" - have you seen the capabilities of the Creation Kit yet?
didn't think so

and if you want to see some truly ground-breaking mods, look no further than S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Shadow of Chernobyl, or Half-Life (1, 2, doesn't matter), or even something as "basic" as the Unreal Engine(s)

the only thing Bethesda has ever done with their (current) engine "kits" is to simplify them, so that "the average user" will have no problem in using them - hence the many mods, and hence the very limited amount of truly ground-breaking mods

it's an editor, for sure, but it is and always has been severely limited

as with you and your Devil's Advocate babbling about "survival/realism", please, put your pants back on... I'm talking about immersion - you might want to look it up sometime? who knows, you might learn a thing or two

:edit

since I just know you're still "facing your palm" regarding the crippled options;

in Morrowind we had options as where to put our gear (shoulder/legging, etc.) - Oblivion removed some of these (as well as some skills - Spear, axe, etc.) and in turn Skryim removed further skills (athletics, acrobatics, 1-hand sword, 2-hand sword, etc.)

do you really think these are going to be able to be put back through the use of the Creation Kit?

Hats off to you, then. I suppose you loved Deadly Reflex for Oblivion. Honestly, I suppose I did too. Though, the latest version had bad conflicts with BBB seeing as how they both messed with anims and the skeleton in some way, so I had to remove it. DR, not BBB.

Eh. I'm not sure about that Hypothermia mod thing. I think it would actually ruin immersion for me. Not because it's not realistic to be effected by the cold, but because there are SO MANY other NPC's out there walking around in blizzards at all times that would suffer no effects like the PC would. That Winterhold guard armor and those mages robes should by no means be enough to protect someone from freezing to death from prolonged exposure.

The same goes for hunger mods. There are a number of NPC's that you never see sleep or eat. Why should the PC have to? Well, I suppose, it's a moot point if someone actually takes the time to add it into the AI of every single NPC in the game.

Also for combat tweaks.. To make it immersive, at least in my opinion, they would have to apply to NPC's and the PC equally. Why should one Elf be different from another in such a core way? But wouldn't this also break the balance of the game and screw with quests? All of a sudden those quests where you go into the barrows (etc) with companions, they're all getting one-hit killed by Draugr.

First, clown, I know what immersion is. I commented on that in my other post. I don't believe it creates the feeling of "immersion" to simply add all of these things to the PC. Why should your character be unique? There are more than a few NPC's that don't have sleeping or eating in their AI. And obviously, none of them suffer penalties for not doing these things, the act of eating/sleeping is entirely cosmetic, other than making them easier to sneak up on. All of them would have to be changed, in order to implement these things in a way that helps create immersion. Without that, all you're doing is just adding a new difficulty level and calling it immersion.

Also, as far as the editor goes... YOU HAVE NOT SEEN IT YET. Neither have I, obviously. CALM DOWN. You cannot honestly say you have any idea on what features it will or will not have. I think you're giving new meaning to the word ungrateful. I mean, jeeze. It's not even out yet, and you're already writing it off as unacceptable.

And blech. Since you're pointing out opinions versus facts, it would be a good idea to recognize that your favorable views on Half Life and STALKER mods are just that. Opinions. If you're so pumped up about their modding communities versus ours (as a result of our modding tools), go back to them.

What i would like to see personally:

- no spontaneous health regeneration.
- food instead of healing should add to regeneration, so if you eat something your health will slowly regenerate.
- optional no-fast-travel - carts only
- less picklocks / higher price
- certain traders should have certain amount of good items (Glass,Ebony,etc..), but with very high price on them.

You can time your normal movements according to an enemies power atttacks to dodge effectively, there are I think three, one is a vertical arc one is a horizontal arc and the other is a lunge, I've seen most different enemy types do this, you can dodge them by timing your movements, such as feinting in then stepping back, one of my favourites to dodge the vertical power attack is quickly sprint forwards slightly to their left or right so I go under their power attack and have an opportunity to attack from the side.

This is badly needed in skyrim, not as worse as Oblivion.

Anyway.. I tweaked my .ini files to removes places markig and compass in the hud as instructed and it didn t work a bit. even restarting game.

for the sake of immersing the player, I seriously doubt the NPC's care whether they're immersed in the game or not


I am drawing conclusions based on experience with the four other editors already available from the same company


I simply called you out on your BS and provided you with actual facts, whether or not you find these opinionated or not, really is none of my concern
and don't worry, I am very active in both those communities, although on a more personal level, since i think that the mods being made are perfectly suitable for my purposes
I do create my own, but more for my own purpose

and please, name-calling and (such obvious failed) attempts to flame me, simply because I retorted your claims in ways which you were unable to justify otherwise is so very.... how do I put this... "childish"

if you don't have any proper counter-arguments regarding the subject at hand, and if you can't handle people proving you wrong, then the internet may not be a place for you

now then, I once again urge that we let the thread and what is relevant to it continue, instead of endless bickering about opinions, which lead to no further progress, but merely make the rest of the people trying to contribute feel like we're ruining the fun for everyone, thus in the end making mods lock the thread and accomplishing nothing but proving that it takes one to spot one

if you wish to engage further in semantics regarding immersion vs. realism, you are more than welcome to do so outside of this thread, but as long as you're going to try and "belittle" anyone by name-calling or similar; I suggest you take it somewhere else

Well, It's kind of disappointing to see how shallow your definition of "Immersion" is, seeing as how you're so fired up about it. So you think it creates a feeling of immersion for a player when he mysteriously is the only one in the world who suffers from basic needs? The thing about RPG's is that you're not a single character alone on an island that will never interact with other characters. If you don't care how the other characters are affected by those things, perhaps I can recommend a game more suited to your needs. Perhaps... Cabela's Big Game Hunter, 2012. It will pit you against ferocious beasties, make you survive in the wilderness, and you'll barely have any interaction with any humanoid NPC. There are decidedly less excessively vulgar winged dinosaurs, though. Also less... "Stop right there, criminal scum!" The idea that immersion has to do with more than just what directly has an effect on the Player is the entire reason the radiant story system was invented in the first place. I might be off on the nomenclature, but you get the idea.

Also, what? Is the pot calling the kettle black, now? Just because I was more direct than you, your feelings are hurt? Do you honestly believe that your tone in the initial response to my post was both venomous and inflammatory.

GOD Forbid someone disagree with someone on the forums and have an opposing opinion. OH wait...

forum (?f??r?m)

— n , pl -rums , -ra
1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest

I guess the words "open discussion" for you only involves patting you on the shoulder and passionately agreeing with your opinion. Apparently, open discussion can only occur about topics which you have deemed acceptable, as well.

Plus, for your information, I've been talking about immersion/realism this ENTIRE time. I do believe that was the general idea behind this topic. Another individual even saw fit to respond to my original post which you seem to have taken as a personal attack. Don't get me wrong, the second one somewhat was. So, exactly who is off topic, Mr. "S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and Half Life? You were the one who brought up the supposed issues with the upcoming editor, I simply responded to your claim.

Also, while I'm educating you on the definitions of words in the English language, let's jump to something us "childish" people like to call "Fallacies."

fal·la·cy? ?[fal-uh-see] Show IPA
noun, plural -cies.

4. Logic . any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

In other words, these are not facts. Let me give you an example:

"I am drawing conclusions based on experience with the four other editors already available from the same company"

Just because something has happened once, does not mean that it is certainly going to happen again. I'll give you extra points if you identify which logical fallacy I'm referring to. Please, feel free to use Google or even Wikipedia. In the mean time, give Bethesda a chance and just wait until it's released to condemn the editor.

Perhaps before lashing out at others for perceived insults, you should cast your gaze inwards and perhaps reconsider how you worded something. Also, before someone calls someone out on their argument for being baseless, one should ensure his own assertion is indeed sound. Your views in regards to the upcoming creation kit are based upon speculation and personal opinion. I have not made any claim for which I do not have experience to back up.

I find it interesting how you can accept the fact that the PC (that stands for Player Character) is:

A ) The one and only Dragonborn
B ) The one and only quest-solver
C ) The one and only being able to level (as a character)
D ) The one and only to travel around the world in such a scale that s/he does
E ) The one and only to actually be seen trading with other NPC’s
The list goes on and on and on and on
But I reckon that your “logic” can’t comprehend these issues, hence you find them irrelevant to your definition of “immersion”, although they contradict every thought you have on the subject

As for the rest of that statement, it merely proves my point – (yet another) child trying to pick a fight
my feelings (should be) none of your concern; but I do recognize when I have made someone upset
they tend to go on a long rant, where they desperately try to pinpoint flaws of the other person, due to lack of sufficient retorts for the question(s) at hand

Open discussions are quite fine with me, since I frequent forums just for the sake of discussing
ranting on and on, like a bitter child who cannot accept that the time for bickering has long since past his bed-time on the other hand, does annoy not only me, but the rest of the people in this thread

This specific forum is about modding – this specific thread is about a specific topic, from which you keep derailing with your petty ramblings which has no context to the subject of matter at all
You are merely trying to achieve some level of “internet-respect” simply by dissecting words and “proving” that you are indeed “the superior intelligence at hand here”


Regarding my “off-topic” about modding in other communities, it was merely a response to this claim of yours (which you apparently did not make?)
On that note, I have not condemned the editor, I merely point out it’s limitations on before-hand

how can I do this? Based on past experiences? That’s impossible, right?

well, since the “Kits” provided to us for the past 4 games have all been basically revamped versions of the previous (add a few things here, remove a few things there) I can see no logical reason as to why this would change now

now then, you can use dictionaries all you want, and you can bend words and try to “educate me” and tell me to go play [whatever], but in the mean-time I still try to urge you to stop this idiocy before it is too late

yes, this is a forum, but this is a specific thread, regarding a specific subject and you are merely proving yourself incapable of keeping on-topic of said thread and instead lash out with childish behavior in (desperate) attempts to try and convey any sort of emotion from me

this, I believe is called trolling and if you’d like to continue doing so, please, be my guest – but for the sake of this thread and the other members participating in this thread, please stop making a fool of both of us and just leave it at what it is – should you wish to further delve into the idiocy that is “proving the other person wrong on the internet", I strongly suggest 4-Chan, I think you’d love it there

Hoo boy. Alright, I know an ego-maniac when I see one. I wonder, are you just like that on the internet, or are you like that IRL, too? I'll leave you alone for now, lest you burst an artery. I love when people accuse dissenting opinions of being voiced by "Trolls" just by virtue of being dissenting. However, since you're getting more insulting as we go on, I'll stop poking the proverbial bear. Do me a favor and look me up when you grow up.

Also, the fact that you seem to think that I would actually go out of my way to make someone like you mad, is hilarious. It seems I've managed it without even trying, though. You really need to let some of the air out of your ego.

If you guys don't stop this flame war the topic will be locked.


Let's get back to what this conversation is actually about, eh?

Which .ini you put things in seems to be the biggest problem for tweaking settings this time round. For myself I found tweaking the ini in the games install directory does nothing, then discovered identical ini's in the my documents/my games/skyrim folder on the C:\ drive. Put
bShowCompass=0 in the [MAIN] section of the SkyrimPrefs.ini in there, thats how it works for me.



As another personal edit I'd be doing for myself but would like to discuss, since it revolves around realism, I think the way in which stamina is involved with combat moves needs a little tweaking. Due to the way I play (as mentioned earlier) stamina becomes my most important stat, simply because I cannot do any of the things that stop me from being 1-hit KOd without having any stamina, and without heavy investment in to it I run our far too quickly. I propose some rebalancing for the cost of different maneuvers or possibly the base amount / regen of stamina.


hypothetical situation, im a warrior relying on combat maneuvers and timing timing movements to simulate feinting, e.g. stepping within range of enemy to trigger their power attack / attack / defense followed by one of the following

• stepping in the appropriate direction to avoid
  
• timing shield bashes to daze the enemy if not able to avoid
  
• timing short dashes in combat to move behind or to the side of an attacking enemy
  
• taking the occasional regular hit on the shield

the next step is capitalising on the openings the above moves to counter-attack (a quick flurry of blows or a power attack).

Note the values I use in the followng section are estimates
the problem is that I have 100 stamina + 10* amount of levels I focus on increasing stamina over health.
executing a shield bash requires ~40 stamina,
a perk-less power attack ~50-60 stamina
a short burst of sprint depends on the situation, but the lowest amount would be within the 20~40 range.

As you can see this means I'm unable to fight effectively for more than say 3 maneuvers, unless I solely focus on movement (not sprinting) as my main method of avoiding damage, and this only works in open environments, against humanoid enemies which follow the standard power attack patterns. In an enclosed spaces or against wolves / sabrecats / bears I am forced to rely on shield bash, however I can do about 3-4 shield bashes without having to spend a lot of time simple trying to avoid attacking to replenish stamina.


Level up stamina you might say, well per level 10 stamina is hardly anything to shout about, I would have to invest for numerous levels for the problem of resource starvation to be reduced, however by investing exclusively in stamina means as I level my effective toughness will drop (as my max health doesnt increase but level and therefore levelled enemy toughness will) this means I am even more reliant on maneuvers and the ability to take one or two hits on the shield is greatly diminished.

therefore I'd like to rebalance stamina, mainly focusing on making it mean that defensive maneuvers are more usable. (I dont wish to allow the player to swing power attacks constantly)

How would you balance magic then because magic is balanced on the fact you consume and regenerate a large ammount of mana; magic would be unviable as you would have to constantly spam mana potions like it was Diablo 2.

I would like to see a penalty for getting wet. Swimming in water that cold . . .

more mana to start with/alternatively less mana-points to cast spells

I know that it would make a pure mage-class very difficult to play, but I've not encountered many RPG's where it's actually been easy to play a mage-class (AD&D, per example)

mages are (in general) rather powerful, so if spells were to be tweaked to be more effective, at the same time lowering mana-points cost of throwing spells and/or increasing basic mana, then I think it'd be possible to find a work-around

also (as mentioned previously) sleeping should regenerate mana

as far as I know there are still staffs/magical items in the game, thus mage-classes could actually be forced to rely on such items as backup

I dont know how viable it is using the CK, but I was mulling over the idea of "Mana Points" (a [censored] trope in RPGs) being replaced with "concentration", a fast similar regenerating resource which doesnt require any reworking of the resource mechanic itself, and any cost related perks / effects, however instead of the binary can / cant cast depending on how much mana you currently have I would make the effect of a spell diminish the more empty your bar is, so for example with an empty bar your fireball will do 1/8 of the damage it would at full concentration.

One pitfall to avoid would be allowing the casting of very high level spells which are usually barred because of their mana cost, I like this system and dont want to circumvent it, so if your max concentration is below the requirement of the cast you still cannot cast it.

This would require some rebalancing, so that at maximum concentration a spell will do more than the default damage.

Obviously for spells which have no meaninful numerical values some other effect would be required, how the empty bar would effect those kinds of spells obivously needs some longer thought, but I'm just throwing the idea out to get any feedback.

I'm loving the concept, as it would create more balance to the game, rather than the idea(s) I had myself
I'd love to see this be put to works

even if the CK would limit it to something simpler, there may still be hope with a script-extender(?)

Script Extender would most likely be required to mess around with such a basic game function, doing the spell stat modifications scaling from current "mana" would be fine, since thats just modifying variables reading others, and math. The difficult part would be making spells castable with zero mana, but still draining mana whilst casting. without that specific functionality built in, it would be very difficult. Unless the CK's scripting itself would allow spells to be flagged as free to cast, but would also give the ability to tack on the drain mana - self effect.