Smith Skill Makes or Breaks the game : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 12, 2012 11:34 am

So I was just playing along as a Nord, Sword & Shield in light armor. Not too difficult really. Then about 8th level I decided I would start really working on my Smith skill. By that I mean I was going to stop carrying around those 40+ iron ingots and make some daggers out of them.

Well I am now 20th level. I’m wearing a full suit of upgraded glass armor. Lydia is with me and she’s wearing a full suit of upgraded ebony. We are freaking unstoppable. Seriously I feel like I broke the game.

I noted that if I had not done any blacksmithing I would still be wearing leather armor, and maybe a few pieces of elven. But that’s it, and it wouldn’t even be upgraded. My weapon would be a dwarven sword.

Honestly due to using the Smith skill and making my own stuff I am more than twice as powerful as I would have been without it. So … how can you play this game without it? It appears to me that any rogue or warrior MUST max out the Smith skill as fast as possible.

I like the blacksmithing, but I fear that Bethesda made it too much of a requirement as far as needed skills. One way they could have fix this is to let you hire a smith to do the same work for you, that way you can still get the good stuff without having to raise the skill yourself, it would only cost you gold.

Another problem is that it also makes it required to use perks (those rare and precious perks) on the Smith skill. Heavy armor guys can at least just go up one side of the tree, but a light armor person (if they want the better weapons also) must go up both sides of it.

Is the Smithing skill too much of a requirement the way it is? Could you survive at all at upper levels without it? Thoughts?

not saying it is balanced haven't really tried it myself
but it requiring precious skill points seems to make sense if it so powerfull
if it wouldn't it would be even more unbalanced since you could easily have the best armor and max out other perk tree's at the same it
and having to go up both tree's to get both the best armor and weapons makes sense aswell
can't have best of both worlds without having to pay for it, that's balancing to some extent right there and you want them to remove it?

» Sat May 12, 2012 3:22 am

This thread is the best indication of how powerful and flexible this new level system really is.

lol i agree.

mage < just peeking, but it's so true...

and btw playing expert/master difficulty are a hair short of a difference. both brutal... 1 just doesn't feel right sometimes though. when you sit there charring an animal to bits for a year then it turns around and 1 shots another animal it just looks a bit odd and takes away from the feel (for me personally) so i switch between expert > master.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:09 pm

I think there should be a Heavy/Light Armor skill level requirement put on gear and the same thing done with weapons as well. That will stop people with maxed blacksmithing and gimped out other skills from wearing the best armor/weapons in the game.

It doesn't seem right that someone with a 1/2-handed skill of 20 and blacksmithing maxed out can use the best weapons in the game with no drawbacks or other requirements.

Just because you can make some really amazing sword doesn't mean you should know how to use it properly.

In OB it was someone's STR attribute that did this for you. Sure my level one character in OB could have Daedric armor (if I used a console to give it to him), but at the same time he wouldn't be able to carry it. Maybe something similar to this could be done.

Like I said I think the next character I'll just level things evenly even if I have to force it.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:31 am

and having to go up both tree's to get both the best armor and weapons makes sense aswell
can't have best of both worlds without having to pay for it, that's balancing to some extent right there and you want them to remove it?

No, you're missing the point: the right side of the perk tree has "heavy armor" perks, and the left side has "light armor" perks. However, the right side of the tree also has the 2 top tiers of weapons (Daedric and Ebony).

If you want to Smith good light armor throughout the majority of the 'Smith game', you need to go up the left side of the tree ... and end up with 3rd tier weapons (Glass).

Tbh, it'd be balanced if Glass weapons had Ebony level damage ratings, or something. Or if you could access Daedric Smithing after getting Dragon Smithing through the left side of the tree. Or if the left side of the tree had an Ebony-level (at least) weapon smithing option.

As it stands, if you want to progress gradually with light armor, and you actually want the top 2 tiers of weapons, you need to go up both sides of the Smith tree.

Heavy Armor users do not face this conflict: they just go up the right side of the tree and call it a day.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:39 am

Why not just make higher end ore much harder to get? I'm guessing on PC a mod could handle this easily.

That would give a bit more sense of accomplishment than walking around in high end gear at start of the game.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:33 am

Smithing is a bit too easy to progress in, in my opinion. I got dragon armour very quickly simply by buying materials from blacksmiths, crafting weapons, then selling the weapons back to the blacksmiths.*repeat*

Maybe if the materials were harder to come by it would slow things down a bit?

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:20 am

I like crafting stuff, but for me personally with the few perks available, I would rather spend them on my more important skills that I use more often, like combat stuff. I'm a sneaky type, so I between 1 handed, archery, and thief skills I don't have points left for stuff like smithing, especially since I was dumb and spent them on magic schools I'd never use at first. And, I don't wanna go back and reroll and start over. If I do a 2nd playthrough some day, I will probably go for a heavy warrior type and work on smithing, but right now I don't want to switch gears.

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:19 am

So you have no problem with never having Dragon armor, or Daedric armor/weapons?I can see how a mage would never need it. But rogues and warriors it's just a must.I'm afraid that if I put my character back into whatever armor he could find now that he'd be so weak that anything would kill him (and Lydia).

Not really. My char is level 31, axe and board, heavy armour, smithing for perks, don't bother with a companion. I use a Honed Draugr War Axe(flawless), dragonbone shield and helmet, the rest is a mix of steel plate and nord steel for looks, and the only thing that's ever given me real pause were multiples of the Draugr Deathlords. What you say might be true on the highest difficulty, but then that's the point of the highest difficulty - it's a challenge, and you have to build your character in the most efficient way.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:51 am

The best way to balance this out would be making it a requirment to be at a certain level (or have certain stats) before you can equipt a certain weapon or armour.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:35 am

I'm in agreement with the OP as far as not wanting to spend my skill points on crafting but still want the option to craft. If they gave me a skill point strictly for crafting every other lvl that would be fine as long as I still get my normal perk so I can put it towards something that helps me fight. Still waiting for some mod like that to come out but I haven't seen anything like it.

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:35 am

i dont get this thread.

how exactly did you get to build these high level armours by "doing a bit of smithing". what is your smithing level and how did you get it there?
firstly if you didnt hunt youd have nothing to sell, which means you'd have nothing to buy ingots etc with, and if you continually buy all your equipment at the shop you will run out of money and have to go level in a balanced way.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:38 am

So I was just playing along as a Nord, Sword & Shield in light armor. Not too difficult really. Then about 8th level I decided I would start really working on my Smith skill. By that I mean I was going to stop carrying around those 40+ iron ingots and make some daggers out of them.

Well I am now 20th level. I’m wearing a full suit of upgraded glass armor. Lydia is with me and she’s wearing a full suit of upgraded ebony. We are freaking unstoppable. Seriously I feel like I broke the game.

I noted that if I had not done any blacksmithing I would still be wearing leather armor, and maybe a few pieces of elven. But that’s it, and it wouldn’t even be upgraded. My weapon would be a dwarven sword.

Honestly due to using the Smith skill and making my own stuff I am more than twice as powerful as I would have been without it. So … how can you play this game without it? It appears to me that any rogue or warrior MUST max out the Smith skill as fast as possible.

I like the blacksmithing, but I fear that Bethesda made it too much of a requirement as far as needed skills. One way they could have fix this is to let you hire a smith to do the same work for you, that way you can still get the good stuff without having to raise the skill yourself, it would only cost you gold.

Another problem is that it also makes it required to use perks (those rare and precious perks) on the Smith skill. Heavy armor guys can at least just go up one side of the tree, but a light armor person (if they want the better weapons also) must go up both sides of it.

Is the Smithing skill too much of a requirement the way it is? Could you survive at all at upper levels without it? Thoughts?

Funny, I am one of the persosn complainign the game is too easy even on master. And I am playing a warrior andmy smithing increased only 2 points since the starting value. So NO smithign is not required at all to have a strong character.

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:53 am

Interesting...

On one hand we get flooded with threads like "Omg I raised my secondary skills like smithing and now I can't kill anything!" that have low combat skills.

But then on the other hand we have a few that secondary skills (smithing in this case again) completely break the game with overpowered equipment.

Very interesting...

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:20 am

After thinking about it, I think the best way to fix the issue (or at least the majority of it for most players), is two changes:

1. Reduce the perk bonus to enhancements by half, and

2. Decay the skill gain from "low rank" crafting. E.g. you cannot get to 100 Smithing with 500 Iron Daggers. Crafting a certain material of item should give 80%, 60%, 40%, and then 20% skill XP when you are 10, 20, 30, 40 skill past the required level (floors at 25%).

Not exact numbers, but close enough.

Honestly, if you had to craft 40 Steel Daggers to get to Dwarven or Orchalcum, the cost / rarity of the ore would become prohibitive. You'd have to put forth some serious effort to skill your smithing up.

The perk bonus shaves off some of the obscene scaling with enhancements.

There's still some residual issue with the availability of certain materials in the world (*cough*Ebony*cough*), but that would take more re-tuning effort over time.

Also, general material regeneration on NPC shops should be shaved down slightly, but that's additional tuning.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:18 pm

So you have no problem with never having Dragon armor, or Daedric armor/weapons?

I can see how a mage would never need it. But rogues and warriors it's just a must.

I'm afraid that if I put my character back into whatever armor he could find now that he'd be so weak that anything would kill him (and Lydia).

Umm. I don't know if this will make you more pissed off at Smithing or less, but I'm level 32, don't use Smithing, and I've found Dragon Armor in chests. (I have the Treasure Hunter perk, if that makes a difference.) So Smithing is NOT required to get Dragon Armor.

Dragon armor from what I've heard is sadly not as good as it should be, given the theme of this game.

Daedric can be gotten elsewhere.

My thief is wearing light Dragon Armor right now, and it is quite good, better than Elven, Dwarven, or Glass anyway.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:24 am

makes the game, i feel like a thug in my upgraded dragonplater armor and upgraded deadric sword and mace

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:00 am

First off, let's get one thing out of the way.

Blacksmithing is a legitimate route to success. Some people increase their damage through improving combat skills. You improve yours through superior armor and weaponry. Both are valid.

Now you say that you feel you are too powerful. I may have to disagree. You can make yourself glass armor and ebony armor for Lydia, but people who focus on combat skills can find some pieces of that armor anyway. So they can be as well geared as you, but they have better combat skills. That makes them more powerful than you actually.
The only real advantage you have is the smithing improvements you can do. But other people have more combat perks to compensate.

It is quite possible that blacksmithing and enchanting are too powerful and require balancing.
But it is also quite possible that you only feel blacksmithing is too powerful because it is a safe and easy route to success. Again I may have to disagree because mats cost gold. You still have to go out there to earn gold.

It is also possible that what you're experiencing is merely that the game is easy. You want to know what power is? At level 20+, and I could one-shot a giant with an exquisite elven dagger with a sneak power attack. Beat that!

» Sat May 12, 2012 6:49 am

So you have no problem with never having Dragon armor, or Daedric armor/weapons?

I can see how a mage would never need it. But rogues and warriors it's just a must.

I'm afraid that if I put my character back into whatever armor he could find now that he'd be so weak that anything would kill him (and Lydia).

Well anyone else at lvl 20 has an extra 12 levels of fighting skills instead of the upgraded gear, so if you use normal gear you'll probably get owned

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:46 am

You want to know what power is? At level 20+, and I could one-shot a giant with an exquisite elven dagger with a sneak power attack. Beat that!

Exquisite elven dagger?

Try a legendary Blade of Woe...

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:59 am

2. Decay the skill gain from "low rank" crafting. E.g. you cannot get to 100 Smithing with 500 Iron Daggers. Crafting a certain material of item should give 80%, 60%, 40%, and then 20% skill XP when you are 10, 20, 30, 40 skill past the required level (floors at 25%).

I am surprised that this "diminishing returns from iron" is not in the game. It is harder to level alchemy because potions with only one effect doesn't increase alchemy as much as potions with 2 or 3 effects.
This change alone should fix blacksmithing.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:00 pm

I noted that if I had not done any blacksmithing I would still be wearing leather armor, and maybe a few pieces of elven. But that’s it, and it wouldn’t even be upgraded. My weapon would be a dwarven sword.

What's stopping you... no backbone? Oh, you want the Dragon backbone right? :rolleyes:

» Sat May 12, 2012 6:11 am

To all the people saying that blacksmithing/enchanting is underpowered:

The armor I'm wearing has nearly double the armor rating. I have four pieces that have +27% two handed damage (total 108%). My warhammer has +40 damage to it. It is pretty dang powerful. I can walk up to giants and kill them. I two shotted a troll. Granted, this is only adept, but it's still rather powerful.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:03 pm

Honestly due to using the Smith skill and making my own stuff I am more than twice as powerful as I would have been without it. So … how can you play this game without it? It appears to me that any rogue or warrior MUST max out the Smith skill as fast as possible.

I like the blacksmithing, but I fear that Bethesda made it too much of a requirement as far as needed skills.

That's just it though. It's NOT a requirement.

I'm at level 27, and doing just fine without it.

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:39 pm

Granted I'm a stealth-based character, I haven't touched smithing. I feel like the Nightingale armor set from the Thieves Guild questline is more powerful (maybe not armor rating-wise, but definitely augmentation-wise) than most armor I've run into so far. I'm level 31.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:41 pm

Honestly Smithing needs to be rebalanced. It's absurd that you can attain the mastery for crafting daedric/dragon gear by simply forging a few hundred iron daggers. Once you hit a certain level of smithing, the lower metal should be capped out so that you no longer improve from it. So once you craft enough iron, you have to move on to steel to become better, then elvish, then plate, then glass for the light side. For the heavy side the progression can stop at ebony. So you can only obtain dragon mastery by working on glass, ebony, and daedric items. This would take more time to level up smithing, so you don't have full dragon gear in an hr and a half of making iron daggers. And would also serve a realism purpose, since you have to work with better and better metals to improve your skill.

So far I'm on Glass gear with level 80 Enchanting, full Legendary gear with weapon enchants. Level 33 on Master Difficulty, and everything dies ridiculously fast. I mean Smithing is a feature in the game, for those of us who wanted to roleplay a blacksmith. But as it is now, it just feels like cheating.

I don't have any ideas for Enchanting yet, but I can say it's pretty OP as well.