Sneak is OP

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:41 am

They come looking for me stand right next to me then leave, I repeated this about 40 times to kill them all, my follower went down like 30 times.
Isn't that your "problem"? If I get it right they found and (almost) killed your follower quite each time. They came searching for the noise and noticed your follower first then assumed they found what they are searching for and stoped searching once your folower went down...I find this quite realistic.
I admit that sneak is sometime overpowered in a sense that unrealistic...but not overpowered in a sense that you have a way easyer time with strong enemies...you need to invest more time in those instead of potions and things like that when using sneak. But I realy like the combination of sneak+follower when enemies notice the follower behind me first and come running past me and I kill them while they do that...that's pretty cool and realistic imo.
User avatar
Life long Observer
 
Posts: 3476
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:30 am

So exercise restraint and don't OP yourself. Now, I know what the next argument will be... "But I shouldn't have to". Be that as it may, I have found a wide range of playstyles and difficulty levels (both hard ajnd easy) that can be achieved with a little experimentation.

Success versus repeated complaining on a forum? I suggest you choose success. It's far more productive, gamewise.

And no, it won't be "fixed". Becoming godlike has been a staple feature of more RPGs than I can count, and has been a staple in Beth RPGs for a while now, to the point where it must be called a design choice. You don't "fix" design choices.

They didn't fix balance in the other games because balancing costs money. Looks like you're one of those who bought the 'choices' excuse. Now that Skyrim has attracted a whole new audience, they can't ignore the issue, hence why they announced they would implement balance and difficulty changes.
User avatar
Stat Wrecker
 
Posts: 3511
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:14 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:51 am


Isn't that your "problem"? If I get it right they found and (almost) killed your follower quite each time. They came searching for the noise and noticed your follower first then assumed they found what they are searching for and stoped searching once your folower went down...I find this quite realistic.
I admit that sneak is sometime overpowered in a sense that unrealistic...but not overpowered in a sense that you have a way easyer time with strong enemies...you need to invest more time in those instead of potions and things like that when using sneak. But I realy like the combination of sneak+follower when enemies notice the follower behind me first and come running past me and I kill them while they do that...that's pretty cool and realistic imo.

Actually the eye is half open not closing while my follower is down so they are still searching for me, the fact that they bump into me pushing me and don't notice me is ad AI. I'm try it on master see if it's better.
User avatar
natalie mccormick
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:36 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:16 am

I would expect a master sneak to have legendary abilities, so if he is played carefully, I would hope only enemies with legendary or near-legendary perception would have a decent chance of detecting him.

When you sneak-attack an NPC, he and any nearby NPCs go on alert. They will even go on alert when they discover a corpse. They spend some time seeking out the threat, and during that time, the probability of your being detected increases. If they fail to find you, then they eventually return to their daily business. I really like the NPC behavior in this game.
User avatar
maria Dwyer
 
Posts: 3422
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:24 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 pm



So exercise restraint and don't OP yourself. Now, I know what the next argument will be... "But I shouldn't have to". Be that as it may, I have found a wide range of playstyles and difficulty levels (both hard ajnd easy) that can be achieved with a little experimentation.

Success versus repeated complaining on a forum? I suggest you choose success. It's far more productive, gamewise.

And no, it won't be "fixed". Becoming godlike has been a staple feature of more RPGs than I can count,
and has been a staple in Beth RPGs for a while now, to the point where it must be called a design choice. You don't "fix" design choices.

I would expect a master sneak to have legendary abilities, so if he is played carefully, I would hope only enemies with legendary or near-legendary perception would have a decent chance of detecting him.

When you sneak-attack an NPC, he and any nearby NPCs go on alert. They will even go on alert when they discover a corpse. They spend some time seeking out the threat, and during that time, the probability of your being detected increases. If they fail to find you, then they eventually return to their daily business. I really like the NPC behavior in this game.


One dude stood in front of me looking for me as I put 6 arrows in his chest. Yea AI is amazing. Oh yea and I had 30 sneak at the time.
User avatar
Kate Norris
 
Posts: 3373
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:12 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:09 am

One dude stood in front of me looking for me as I put 6 arrows in his chest. Yea AI is amazing. Oh yea and I had 30 sneak at the time.
While you were busily sinking arrows into his chest, would you have found it more realistic had he sauntered up to you like nothing is the matter and snatched the bow from your hands?
User avatar
Sabrina garzotto
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:58 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:28 pm

I'm not one to complain and I'm not but truthfully it is. I just had a battle with 4 dauger in a crypt that were much stronger then me, I was at bottom of stairs and would walk up shoot 1 arrow then move against he wall. They come looking for me stand right next to me then leave, I repeated this about 40 times to kill them all, my follower went down like 30 times.

I'm a thief so I understand they need sneak but wow is it ever OP. Also killed a dragon priest by standing behind a pillar, if he saw me I just go to other side of pillar and he would leave. They should of made the enemy look harder for you, in closing just want to add love this damn game.

Stop using companions to lure away and tank enemies, you'll have a lot more fun as a stealth archer this way.
User avatar
Ilona Neumann
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:30 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:47 pm

Funny you mention that just had a battle where 3 enemies ran right past me....no they ran on top of me to the point I got pushed over so they could get to follower. Stayed hidden even though they walked on me.
Followers don't actually expose you directly, at least not on higher stealth levels.
The follower is detected, this causes the enemy to turn towards you and attack the follower, doing this they might detect you. However it fun using the dagger on them as they run past.

This was also true in Fallout 3, remember some fights where you was part of an team and could work as an stealthy sniper, taking out enemies who attacked the team.

My only issue about stealth in the game is that it's to easy to hide, stealth 80 1/5 perks and you can hide in the middle of well lit tavern and pickpocket people.
You also have bandits running past you. That one should require higher sneak.
User avatar
Epul Kedah
 
Posts: 3545
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:35 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:21 am

More on the subject, some anecdotal evidence:

Two necromancers in a cave: one is in front of a table full of bones and gore, the other is facing a library

Arrow strucks the one near the bookshelf. The other turns, rush to it and screams (it was a female breton or imperial):
"A... a corpse! This is terrible". Then, after a few moments facing the dead companion, she goes back to her table and resume examining those gory remains.

I couldn't laugh at the necromancer being disgusted by the sight of corpse while she lives in a cave full of decaying bodies! LOL
User avatar
Joie Perez
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:25 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:21 pm

With shadow warrior you can pretty much go into sneak then pop in behind them and slice their throats one by one. On a earlier character I've done this 5 against me. Now I just run back a couple rooms and go hide in corner until I'm hidden again then go back.
this is why i dont use the left side of the skill tree, it seemed a bit silly to me, and this is my first stealth playthrough, its not hard to read, but apparently it is to some people.
User avatar
michael danso
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:21 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:19 pm

While you were busily sinking arrows into his chest, would you have found it more realistic had he sauntered up to you like nothing is the matter and snatched the bow from your hands?
I think people would prefer this sometimes.....me, i like the laughs.
User avatar
Dalia
 
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Sneak is a bit OP with daggers and all the perks BUT I have the full tree, only use light nightingale armour, 100sneak.. and I can't sneak up on a Skeever. Also if I am sneaking, my follower will stay sneaking and just take hits if they are spotted and will not fight back.
User avatar
kasia
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:46 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:22 am

I don't know if Bethesda listened to the OP and nerfed Sneak badly but now it's completely useless for me. Enemies who are sitting with their back to me get off their chair to search for me when I'm over 20 feet away and sneaking with lvl 80 sneak and muffled boots (pathetic). I was levelling up pickpocket on bandits but now the only way I'll level up sneak is to go into the corner of a shop, jam a key down and go afk, and I guess it's back to constant saving as I have to pickpocket NPC's that I don't want to kill. Thanks Bethesda :(
User avatar
Elizabeth Falvey
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:37 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:09 am

I don't know if Bethesda listened to the OP and nerfed Sneak badly but now it's completely useless for me. Enemies who are sitting with their back to me get off their chair when I'm over 20 feet away and sneaking with lvl 80 sneak and muffled boots (pathetic). I was levelling up pickpocket on bandits but now the only way I'll level up sneak is to go into the corner of a shop, jam a key down and go afk, and I guess it's back to constant saving as I have to pickpocket NPC's that I don't want to kill. Thanks Bethesda :(
I use my aura whisper sometimes and everyone in the whole dungeon knows where i am, kinda defeats the purpose.
User avatar
Peetay
 
Posts: 3303
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:33 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:18 pm

I'm not one to complain and I'm not but truthfully it is. I just had a battle with 4 dauger in a crypt that were much stronger then me, I was at bottom of stairs and would walk up shoot 1 arrow then move against he wall. They come looking for me stand right next to me then leave, I repeated this about 40 times to kill them all, my follower went down like 30 times.
I fail to see a logical connection between sneak and Overpowered here. Obviously it only works because Mobs have lacking short term memory and scout-on-danger skripts, not because of sneak. An obvious negating example would be if you have tried it with a melee weapon. Sneak works only once then they detect the player.


In other works, sneak is not to blame that enemies dont search everything, and stay on alert after someone put an arrow in their... head. Its an AI weakness.
User avatar
Elizabeth Davis
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:30 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:42 am


I fail to see a logical connection between sneak and Overpowered here. Obviously it only works because Mobs have lacking short term memory and scout-on-danger skripts, not because of sneak. An obvious negating example would be if you have tried it with a melee weapon. Sneak works only once then they detect the player.


In other works, sneak is not to blame that enemies dont search everything, and stay on alert after someone put an arrow in their... head. Its an AI weakness.

Nah I've don it with sword, hit them then crouched behind pillar went back to hidden and did it again. Playing on master now and it's a lot harder so I'm happy.
User avatar
Harry-James Payne
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 6:58 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:01 am

I use my aura whisper sometimes and everyone in the whole dungeon knows where i am, kinda defeats the purpose.

I know what you mean, I don't think some things were thought through. Invisibility was a spell I was soooo looking forward to but it's absolutely useless and I can sneak, well i used to be able to sneak better without it.
User avatar
Wayland Neace
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:01 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:46 am

I have no problem sneaking, but it makes no sense considering my glass armor goes CLINK CLANK BANG BANG STOMP ROMP whenever i sneak behind people, lol.
User avatar
KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:10 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:57 am

I find sneak to be inferior to Oblivion's..
User avatar
Steeeph
 
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:28 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:41 am

I have no problem sneaking, but it makes no sense considering my glass armor goes CLINK CLANK BANG BANG STOMP ROMP whenever i sneak behind people, lol.

Maybe thats the problem, if glass armour makes that sound, my dragon armour must go "RAWR, RWAR!" with each step :biggrin:
User avatar
Hot
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:22 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:52 am

With shadow warrior you can pretty much go into sneak then pop in behind them and slice their throats one by one. On a earlier character I've done this 5 against me. Now I just run back a couple rooms and go hide in corner until I'm hidden again then go back.

Haha I do that with my Argonian/Vampire Nightblade. Sometimes I can stealth kill them all before they even actually find me.
User avatar
BethanyRhain
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:50 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:26 pm

Maybe thats the problem, if glass armour makes that sound, my dragon armour must go "RAWR, RWAR!" with each step :biggrin:
lol.
User avatar
Myles
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:52 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:45 am

I fail to see a logical connection between sneak and Overpowered here. Obviously it only works because Mobs have lacking short term memory and scout-on-danger skripts, not because of sneak. An obvious negating example would be if you have tried it with a melee weapon. Sneak works only once then they detect the player.


In other works, sneak is not to blame that enemies dont search everything, and stay on alert after someone put an arrow in their... head. Its an AI weakness.

Undead are terrible to detect sneaking characters, makes sense they are animated corpses, animals are good so they are hard to sneak up on.
Also in Oblivion you could stand 4 meters away from an wraith pumping arrows into it.
However in Oblivion sneak detection depended a lot on the enemy sneak skill making bandits pretty hard to backstab.
User avatar
Eliza Potter
 
Posts: 3481
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:20 am

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:40 am

i find sneak is inconsistent rather than just overpowered. they can either see me half a mile away, or don't notice me while they are walking into me.

sometimes it works too well and others it barely works at all.

This, in draugr tombs its very effect, but in the open world even at night I find it far less effective. Those darn forsworn have some sort of eagle eye vision cause they can spot me a mile away.
User avatar
maya papps
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:44 pm

Post » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:19 am

Sure sneak is OP but so is Smithing, Alchemy and Enchanting.
Imho sneak get really OP after you reach sneak 100 and perk shadow warrior.

But its really up to you how much you want to exploit all those OP skills.
User avatar
renee Duhamel
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:12 am

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim