Stupid Norms and Silly Bull : Othor Games

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:02 am

The custom of taking one's hat off indoors is that it was done to show they were unarmed

Not sure that's correct. Well, it'd be correct if you're having Oddjob over for dinner, but otherwise...

» Thu May 03, 2012 2:14 am

Not sure that's correct. Well, it'd be correct if you're having Oddjob over for dinner, but otherwise...

It's merely the origin...not so much anymore. Now they would need to take their baggy pants off....oh wait...how fun would that be?

» Wed May 02, 2012 11:48 pm

The custom of taking one's hat off indoors is that it was done to show they were unarmed and thus among friends. At one time they also raised their right hand to show they carried no weapon. It has evolved as a show of respect. and custom and while one doesn't have to do so now days, it will go a long way toward endearing you to others and thus getting you ahead in the world. Why? Well because to not do so will cause an others to perceive you as rude and confrontational. Right or wrong...such customs are ingrained in our culture and thus important when trying to succeed in this world.

As for the pockets, that is also for the purpose of showing you are unarmed I believe but more than that, it ruins pockets to continuously have your hands in them due to the extra stress on the fabric. A pair of pants with gaping pockets looks tacky when worn. And as someone else said, people look as if they are not attentive and a bit lazy and slouchy when standing around with their hands in their pockets.

Personally I don't mind hats indoors or hands in pockets but it does change how I perceive someone. And at the dinner table I like hat's off as I want to see their eyes when engaging in dinner conversation. This is especially true for a formal dinner.

You beat me to it, damn. I was never told to keep my hands out of my pockets but my grandmother told me to sparingly have my hands in them if I had on more expensive clothing because it would ruin the pockets. It's the same reason why many people have their suit jackets sewn shut, even if they're rendered useless, it stops them them having an unseemly bulge in them.

One custom that always confused me a little, despite my abiding by it in a more formal setting, is keeping your elbows off of the table. Where'd this come from?

» Thu May 03, 2012 3:43 am

1. "Don't put your hands in your pockets!"

Were you ever told this as a child? Because, I find this very confusing, to quite high degree. Does anyone understand the purpose of not putting your hands in your pockets? Is there some ancient reason for this that only our parents know, or that some of you older ladies and gentlemen who vacate this forum happen to know? I get that it might have something to do with social etiquette and fashionable manner, norms and whatnot, but really, what the [censored] does the gesture of putting your hands in your pocket mean? What is the offense in such an action?

2. "Take off your hat when you're inside!"

Another issue I have regards hats. When I had long hair, I wore a hat to keep it gathered because I didn't use hair products, like gel or any crap like that. And quite frequently, I would be told to take off my hat. What the [censored] does this mean? Where is the connection between an uncovered head and... something? Is it to be respectful? And if so, what makes is disrespectful to wear a hat inside? Once again, this must be some sort of [censored] regarding social etiquette, fashionable manner and norms, but still, what the hell is all this about? Is there some mystical, ancient and lost knowledge that the older generations know of, that for some idiotic reason have not been passed down to any younger generations, mine for example?

The point of this thread is simple: What [censored] does this mean? Can someone explain this [censored]? When do these idiotic norms or whatever, break down into meaningless [censored]? Because, I'm baffled. Also, be free to add any other odd and pointless gestures of respect and social etiquette, if you know of any.

1st one if you fall you can put your hands infront of your face so you can brace for the fall.
2nd one there is no sun in the building so no need for a hat.

» Thu May 03, 2012 4:49 am

... And at the dinner table I like hat's off as I want to see their eyes when engaging in dinner conversation. This is especially true for a formal dinner.

This is what I was told growing up, not indoors just at the table.

» Thu May 03, 2012 4:13 am

2nd one there is no sun in the building so no need for a hat.

What if it's cold?

» Wed May 02, 2012 7:49 pm

I've only heard of not wearing hats indoors at dinner tables, and one article about the American senate where there was a no hat rule while it was in session someone was throwing a fuss about it apparently it is an old rule that went back to a basic idea that gentlemen did not to wear a hat in doors.

Only been scolded about hands in my pocket in a foot race (I was show boating) said not to do it because it messes up your balance and you can get hurt. It can make people nervous though I use to get asked why I always wore different hoodies and would have my hands in my pocket a lot of people thought I carried a gun and would ask me about it.

The point of this thread is simple: What [censored] does this mean? Can someone explain this [censored]? When do these idiotic norms or whatever, break down into meaningless [censored]? Because, I'm baffled. Also, be free to add any other odd and pointless gestures of respect and social etiquette, if you know of any.

Pointless gestures of social etiquette, kind of how the use of the wig evolved. A french king went bald and an English king use to mock him for it so the French king got a wig (he was the original big wig, if you will) and they then started to become popular and it was considered a mark of social rank.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:44 am

I say let people keep their hands in their pockets and wear hats indoors. Who are these "paragons" to judge people on their looks and call them rude? How rude to even think of doing something so inconsiderate!

» Wed May 02, 2012 5:54 pm

I say let people keep their hands in their pockets and wear hats indoors. Who are these "paragons" to judge people on their looks and call them rude? How rude to even think of doing something so inconsiderate!

I might agree with you except that those paragons judging them are generally the ones that hold the keys to jobs, making money and attaining respect in the community. Of course we can rebel against any custom and on rare occasions we change something long held proper but generally rebels are ignored and left out and sometimes detested. But nothings to stop one from refusing to be what is considered polite by the majority of the society in which we live.

In other words, there is not much to gain by not following etiquette except maybe disrespect. I'm not saying it's right, only that it's true.

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:11 am

I'm not sure what the hand in the pocket thing is about other than it might make ya slouch, which seems like a reasonable enough reason not to do it.

Wearing a hat inside is like wearing a coat or having an umbrella. Hats are outdoor accessories. Taking it off when you enter a building shows you're comfortable with being there for more than just a minute.

» Wed May 02, 2012 11:37 pm

I might agree with you except that those paragons judging them are generally the ones that hold the keys to jobs, making money and attaining respect in the community. Of course we can rebel against any custom and on rare occasions we change something long held proper but generally rebels are ignored and left out and sometimes detested. But nothings to stop one from refusing to be what is considered polite by the majority of the society in which we live.

In other words, there is not much to gain by not following etiquette except maybe disrespect. I'm not saying it's right, only that it's true.

It's rather depressing that you can lose a job or even the chance at employment simply because you wear the wrong clothes with the wrong gestures on the wrong day. And the employer is in a bad mood to boot.
If you're perfectly capable of doing your job, why should keeping your hands in your pockets hold you back?

You'd think we'd moved past that by now.

» Wed May 02, 2012 9:20 pm

Look how unprofessional these people look:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Oa7LCO6ZmTE/TfqWtAnklYI/AAAAAAAAAI0/FLBy95MLdRA/s1600/man3.jpg
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dgmata/dgmata1012/dgmata101200008/8337375-young-businessman-looking-serious-hands-in-pockets-isolated-on-white-background.jpg
http://static3.depositphotos.com/1006214/208/i/450/dep_2088840-Standing-Businessman-hands-in-pockets.jpg

Can't believe these losers.

» Thu May 03, 2012 3:56 am

Look how unprofessional these people look:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Oa7LCO6ZmTE/TfqWtAnklYI/AAAAAAAAAI0/FLBy95MLdRA/s1600/man3.jpg
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dgmata/dgmata1012/dgmata101200008/8337375-young-businessman-looking-serious-hands-in-pockets-isolated-on-white-background.jpg
http://static3.depositphotos.com/1006214/208/i/450/dep_2088840-Standing-Businessman-hands-in-pockets.jpg

Let's be honest here, the guy in the 2nd pic looks like a bit of a nob.

» Wed May 02, 2012 8:23 pm

It's rather depressing that you can lose a job or even the chance at employment simply because you wear the wrong clothes with the wrong gestures on the wrong day. And the employer is in a bad mood to boot.
If you're perfectly capable of doing your job, why should keeping your hands in your pockets hold you back?

You'd think we'd moved past that by now.

Too much of it is subconscious and psychological to just "move past" it.

Unless you propose jobs are awarded based solely on the resume. Which isn't likely to work. I'm a horrendous slacker, but judged solely on my performance in school you'd think I was a real hard worker. Not only that, but certain personality traits are advantageous in certain job situations, like being outgoing.

» Wed May 02, 2012 6:46 pm

It's merely the origin...not so much anymore. Now they would need to take their baggy pants off....oh wait...how fun would that be?

Not much, true. Especially since nothing of interest lies therein. But I fail to see how taking off your hat shows you're unarmed (unless you're Oddjob, another hilarious joke of mine nobody laughed at)? Sure you're not confused with the pockets thing?

» Wed May 02, 2012 10:14 pm

Like most respectable men of my age and stature, I keep a loaded gun balanced on top of my head at all appropriate times...

» Wed May 02, 2012 11:47 pm

Never encountered the first one, but I never saw the point of the second one. It never bothered me much though :shrug:

» Thu May 03, 2012 4:18 am

I haven't encountered the first one, at least not outside of situations where your hands shouldn't be idle in the first place.

1st one if you fall you can put your hands infront of your face so you can brace for the fall.
2nd one there is no sun in the building so no need for a hat.

We don't need shoes, or a shirt indoors either, but we don't take those off. I think the hat thing has more to do with having your face entirely unobstructed. Otherwise, it seems as though you're trying to hide your face(and possibly hide certain facial expressions which might betray your thoughts).

» Wed May 02, 2012 10:07 pm

Too much of it is subconscious and psychological to just "move past" it.

Unless you propose jobs are awarded based solely on the resume. Which isn't likely to work. I'm a horrendous slacker, but judged solely on my performance in school you'd think I was a real hard worker. Not only that, but certain personality traits are advantageous in certain job situations, like being outgoing.

If you're told to do P within the time interval I, then as long as you manage to do it, why should it matter who you are? Even the most fashionably reprehensible introvert can be an efficient teacher after all, possibly outperforming his or her peers.
I find it immoral and disgusting how employers tend to discriminate when hiring. I wonder how often they choose person A instead of person B even though both are perfectly qualified to do P within I merely because A is an extrovert and B an introvert, or A went to the interview better clothed. Even worse, when B is more qualified but A is still chosen because A gave a better "social impression". Ever wonder how often "soft skills" come up in employment ads and how they seem to more and more become the main focus? They're literally catering to the extroverts.

Job hunting and interviews has essentially devolved into a smooth-talk contest with minimal regard to actual competency to do P within I. Ingrained social norms and role expectations make it even worse. Even political affiliation can lose you a job except in the rare cases where it's protected by law.

» Wed May 02, 2012 7:59 pm

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought Judaism (at least at its most strict) required everyone to cover their head. Turns out you learn something new every day :smile:

Reminds me of a story about Vlad.

"There are at least two versions of this story in the literature. As with the story of the two monks, one version is common in the German pamphlets and views Dracula's actions unfavorably while the other version is common in Eastern Europe and sees Dracula's actions in a much more favorable light. In both versions, ambassadors of a foreign power visit Dracula's court at Targoviste. When granted an audience with the prince the envoys refused to remove their hats as was the custom when in the presence of the prince in Wallachia. Angered at this sign of disrespect, Dracula had the ambassadors' hats nailed to their heads so that they might never remove them.
In the German version of the story, the envoys are Florentine and refused to remove their hats to demonstrate their superiority. When Dracula asked the ambassadors why they would not remove their hats they responded that such was not their custom and that they would not remove their hats, even for the Holy Roman Emperor. Dracula immediately had their hats nailed to their heads so that they might never come off and had the ambassadors ejected from his court. In Germany and in the West, where the concept of diplomatic immunity was at least given lip service, this was held to be an act of barbarity against the representatives of a friendly power.
In the version of the story common in the east, the envoys are Turkish. When ushered into the presence of the prince, the Turks refused to remove their fezzes (or turbans). When questioned they answered that it was not the custom of their fathers to remove their hats. Dracula then ordered their hats nailed to their heads with three nails so that they might never have to break such an excellent tradition. The envoys were sent back to the sultan. According to Levantine customs, this was held to be a courageous act of defiance in the face of the Ottomans. It should also be noted that the nailing of hats to heads of those who displeased a monarch was not an unknown act in Eastern Europe. Apparently, this method was occasionally used by the princes of Muscovy when faced by unpleasant envoys. "

» Wed May 02, 2012 10:30 pm

I think you could use another [censored].

Anyways, I think the reason to not put your hands in your pockets is because if you are walking and trip, then you are faceplanting. But I've been told to take my hands out of my pockets ever.

Here's one: Why is it considered rude to some people to put your elbows on the dinner table?

» Thu May 03, 2012 9:15 am

You keep your hands out of your pockets so they know you don't have something in hand to kill them, just like you shake with your right hand to make sure you're unarmed (silly fools! Don't they know I'm left-handed :evil:

)

Really, pretty much all our kind etiquette came from our distrust of others. Don't eat until everyone has their meal is to keep someone from poisoning all the food and serving the target first, for example.

We don't need shoes, or a shirt indoors either, but we don't take those off. I think the hat thing has more to do with having your face entirely unobstructed. Otherwise, it seems as though you're trying to hide your face(and possibly hide certain facial expressions which might betray your thoughts).

Bingo. It's to make yourself easily identifiable as a friendly when invited into another's house.

Here's one: Why is it considered rude to some people to put your elbows on the dinner table?

You're claiming your territory when you put your elbows on the table, instead of conceding to the owner when at a dinner party and showing trust. You'll notice this trend continues in prisons where inmates will often eat with their full arms on the table to "claim" their space and protect themselves.

Once again, the real reason is because we don't trust each other :tongue:

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:15 am

"Keep your elbows off the table". I mean come on, where is the harm in that?

Edit: got to it too late, already mentioned above.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:12 am

Not much, true. Especially since nothing of interest lies therein. But I fail to see how taking off your hat shows you're unarmed (unless you're Oddjob, another hilarious joke of mine nobody laughed at)? Sure you're not confused with the pockets thing?

Might not be true. I wasn't there way back when it started so can't really say for sure. But reading many books on etiquette through the years it's what I've been raised to believe the origin is. I believe the literature I have read about it says it started in the days of the knights when headgear was removed and the right hand held high to indicate they come in friendship and peace. And thus it became customary to remove ones headgear (including hats) as a show of friendship.

That said, I've learned much that was not correct. Like that sneaky thing we were all taught in the USA about how Columbus discovered America. He didn't. There were already people here and others had been here before him. Hogwash is everywhere.

So tell me Stormy, do you remove your hat when entering a building? Tip it to a lady? Wear it to bed?

» Wed May 02, 2012 5:58 pm

Some rather overweight and frighteningly hairy woman (I assume) lectured me of the underlying misogyny of door-holding.

I do it as an act of human politeness, regardless of the reproductive organs of whoever I hold the door for. Isn't that what most people who hold doors do?