"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

The wording is clear. Ulfric was an asset who was in contact with the Thalmor and advancing their strategic goals. Ulfric only bailed after the Markarth Incident.

So he did it as part of their plans, as a conscious asset of theirs. To get any other meaning out of those words requires twisting them all out of shape.

No, it's a complete douchenozzle tactic. Sure, sometimes it works, but a competent SOB is still an SOB.

Would you be saying that it was of 'no significance' if the Empire had started it, instead of the Thalmor and Ulfric? Hell no, it would be totally significant then -- it would be useful for slamming on people you don't like.

But hey, it makes your boy Ulfric look bad, so, not relevant!

Pull the other one; its got bells on.

The key word is "enforces". Who made the Empire start enforcing it? Ulfric.

Dude, Talos worship was officially banned thirty years ago. Why did it only become a killing issue now? Its not like the Thalmor Justicars were in Skyrim thirty years ago! Talk to the blacksmith in Riverwood; that [censored] only started after the Stormcloaks rose up.

So basically, unrest only exists as long as Ulfric is pushing the issue. Sounds like the best thing he could for Skyrim is tie an anvil to his feet and jump off a bridge.

PS: I might also point out that Ralof, the Stormcloak guy who rescues you in the prologue, eventually ends up deserting from the Stormcloaks. Why? Because he finally wises up that Ulfric is a power-hungry douchenozzle who isn't sincere about the cause, he's only using it to gain followers for his own power. The man's own bodyguards start ditching him.

Hell, even his lieutenant, General Savage Kills-Them-All (or whatever his name actually was) ends up being all heartbroken after the Stormcloak campaign finishes with a victory, aghast at how much of Skyrim they destroyed while trying to save it.

What more does the game have to do, have Ulfric eat a baby?

Agreed. It's just that Ulfric being a SOB is irrelevant to me as long as the outcome is desirable.

I doubt that Ulfric needs anyone's help looking bad. He has proven himself a less than capable Jarl. The man wears blinkers that allows him only to see, hear and think about the war and his other duties have suffered because of this (the sorry state of Windhelm proves that).

Ulfric brought the issue to the surface, but I don't see how killing Ulfric will make it all go away. The cat is out of the bag and I do not believe that the clock can just be turned back a couple of years as if nothing happened.

Both sides are selfish and want Skyrim for themselves the only difference is the Empire doesn't care if other races move in while the Nords feel it is an intrusion on their home and customs. The big factor is the thalmor though since Skyrim seceding would weaken the Empire, my guess is if the redguards could beat the thalmor then the Nords could as well since they are not only great warriors, but also surronded by mountains. The imperials on the other hand couldn't if they lost skyrim since they are directly bordered by elsywere and valenwood. But i think it depends on what type of character you are, if your a nord who loves your ancient traditions and ways then your a stormcloaks if your an imperial who represents what the empire represents then go join the legion

I was thinking to join Sormcloaks for a long time and I don't like the empire. However, seeing the nationalism of Stormcloaks turned me back and supported empire. Also, I think that the united empire has better chances to defeat the Talmor. So, it was a tough decision, but I made it.

Chuckg has me convinced. My guys are all going to fight for the Legion.

Meh, once again, look at my post in the start of previous page (page 9), 3rd post from the top. If Thalmor will be as powerfull as they were 30 years ago (and I kinda don't see a reason to assume they have decreased in power during this period), Skyrim alone has absolutely 0 chances, even if Jarls will unite their forces.

Ulfric has about a half of Skyrim. He can't effectively deal with 1 weakened Legion. After the victory in a war, while getting his hands on all of Skyrim, his resources will be even lower for some time, due to the devastation after civil war (how his general mentioned). Now look at what losses Empire suffered during the Great war, and what resources it required to defeat Thalmor. Also take into account that Empire had the most organised military force. There's absolutely no way a Skyrim could solo-handedly deal with the Thalmor, IF it didn't drastically decrease in power. (and judging from how cautious the Empire is it didn't) Pure math.

Means, in the big picture - Ulfric's victory = Thalmor's victory.
... although, maybe I'll make a character that will sympathize with Thalmor and aids Stormcloacks. Someday

The Imperials are pigs for siding with the Thalmor.

My turn to troll! stormcloks can go eat a limon with there butcheeks for all i care. I just did a quest where i had to defend whiterun(yes my home) from non other then the stormcloks.Like really?Thats a really really good way to make sure none of my future alts never side with the SCs. imperials are the good guys forsure.The only reason skyrim is in such a crappy state when you start is because the [censored] SCs screwed every thing up.

Ulfric's "I'm Fighting for the people of Skyrim" point does seem to fall down massively when it comes to Whiterun.

Balgruuf is popular ruler, loved by his people and presiding over one of Skyrim's most prosperous holds. He shows a determination to protect his people, a proclivity to fairness and the characteristics of a good ruler.

There is also no way to argue he is anything less than a 'true Nord'.
He recognises the ideal of single combat and proposes to challenge Ulfric to such a confrontation, Ulfric deigns to send in an army instead (so he'll kill a young, physically weak king but won't go up against Balgruuf).
His bloodline goes back to the very founding days of Skyrim according to the fluff and even his way of gauging Ulfric's intentions is very traditional, sending you bearing his axe.
He doesn't even let the Empire garission immediately, he's forced to do so when the Stormcloaks move in against this neutral target.

In the end though, he is loyal to the Empire and refuses to allow his city to be sacked for the sake of Ulfric's ambition. TBH, if i was at the moot and voting, i'd consider Balgruuf above any of the other contenders.

Ulfric supporters need to remember that Ulfric isn't fighting a war on behalf of all of Skyrim's people against the Cyrodilic Empire...he's fighting a war against the more than half of his own country (the bigger cities and holds are in the Imperial camp) that have decided to either remain neutral or stand loyal to the Empire.

That is insurrection, a dangerous upheaval of democracy and justice.


Suffice to say that i was damn proud to stand on the walls of Whiterun in my enchanted Dragon Bone Plate, Jump down into the stormcloak ranks, slow time and then start chain casting AOE destruction spells (hooray for 90+% destruction cast cost reduction).

Neither democracy nor justice exists in Skyrim. If ever there were a place where might makes right - it's Skyrim.

There was a thief and stormcloak supporters being put to death. As far as the game says, the PC is the only possibly innocent person. Not to mention that the Empire also acts on behalf of what the Nord majority want. Think Pontious Pilate in Israel....sound like a strange comparison, but the Empire wants to try and abide by customs of their provinces to appease the subjects

This is where the Empire drew its legitimacy from. That is - until they banned Talos Worship.

I would say that the imperials are "good enough".

Theres an ancient proverb I often think of. Its goes like this:

THe Devil you know is better than the one you don't know


Anti government people would do well to heed this knowledge.

A system of government certainly does exist. Even if you allow for single combat (and we can't prove that Torygg accepted the duel) then you have to accept that the next logical step is a moot. Ulfric doesn't want a moot though, not till he's overthrown the Jarl's that don't support him. Finally, you can't suggest that according to the law's of Skyrim, it's ok for one Jarl to take his troops and burn the other guy's hold, replacing him? I'm thinking Whiterun here.

What actually happens in my mind is that, legally, Ulfric seceeds illegally and declares war as a foreign power. From that point onward, it's war and the Empire has every right to come to the aid of its allies.




I am so, freaking, sick of this argument.

1: They didn't practically crack down on Talos worship until someone built a temple to talos and started an insurrection in his name. At that point, they had to crack down or the Thalmor would have annulled the treaty. Alvor in Riverwood tells you they all had their shrines and no one really cared until the rebellion triggered Thalmor intervention.

2: Ulfric aided the Thalmor after the great war was over, he clearly is no great believer. (Please don't dispute this, i'd hate to have to repost the dossier and anolyis yet again)

3: How does secession help? Great, talos worship is legal...whoops, here come some pissed off elves who's plans for timeless existance you just ruined.

4: To quote from ingame, "Talos the God was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire....we're not ready to let that slip away." Talos didn't want to be worshiped...he just wanted his followers to keep mankind united...so the Stormcloak rebellion is treason of the highest order.

5: The majority of Skyrim, by population, appears to still favour the Empire. The most populated hold's all fall in their camp. To them, the ban, if not acceptable, is at least tollerable.

6: Talos lives on so long as there are human beings, whether they worship him en mass or not. That is why the Mer must destroy not only Talos but also all of mankind and the very idea that mankind could exist before they can shatter time. Their end goal is genocide and world shattering. Given that, surely we can put the Talos thing asside, unite and focus on building strength to throw the Mer back to their freaking Isles.

And I am sure that Stormcloaks think that they receive their legitimacy directly from Talos himself. It is all very medieval, so I'll stick to might makes right.

You go on to argue how Ulfric is a dike and so and so forth. I don't care. It is not my job to right a wrong of the past- it is my job to safeguard a future. I chose the Stormcloaks, not because I believed in their cause, but because too many do. Killing Ulfric would not end the cause. It would be season unending if the Empire marched to Windhelm and then kept on enforcing the Talos-ban (which I am pretty sure the Thalmor would make sure they did).
I can see the merits of supporting both sides and arguments can be made for both. However, I do not think that moral arguments pertaining to past events are relevant.

No you are not the only one. I always disliked the Imperials and the Empire before this too.

At the beginning I thought I would join the stormcloacks or stay neutral. But after seeing that Ulfric planned to attack Whiterun(which I didn't want to) and how he treated the Dunmer I kinda hated the guy and went to Solitude. There after talking to a few Imperials I changed my mind about them too which I didn't expect so I joined the Legion instead.

The Imperials asked me for my opinion of what they should get in return, I gave it and there wasn't a whole lot of commontion.


I don't know or care whether he is willing to accept a bad deal for the good of mankind, that was never my point. The point most people make against independence is that they couldn't survive without the empire; I'm saying that the dire situation means that they wouldn't have to.

Let me say I'm slightly relieved by some of the opinions noted in here. It astonishes me how many people are refusing to see the bigger picture, here. I had many initial inclinations myself towards the Stormcloaks; however, as has already been so eloquently noted by multiple previous individuals, this would spell doom for mankind.

From the documents I recall reading, the Thalmor want the war to be as drawn out as possible--an immediate victory on either side would not be preferred. However, in the end, a Stormcloak victory means Skyrim is not part of the treaty between the Dominion and the Empire, resulting in the ability to immediately invade a Skyrim devastated by Civil War. The territory of Hammerfell itself is debatably more inhospitable to the Altmer, Hammerfell did not go through a costly civil war, and the Altmer troops in Hammerfell were not many-numbered due to most being moved towards the Cyrodiil offensive. Also:

"The Imperial Legions under General Decianus met them outside Skaven in a bloody and indecisive clash. Decianus withdrew and left Arannelya in possession of Skaven, but the Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance... In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil..."

Hammerfell was dealing with a small amount of Aldmeri troops weakened by an Imperial defense of the area in inhospitable desert after the Aldmeri shunted most of their forces to Cyrodiil. And Hammerfell was not in a long, drawn-out, full-blown civil war the way Skyrim is/may be now. Oh, additionally:

"In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors."

Much of the resistance began with the General of the Imperial forces in Hammerfell leaving behind 'invalid' (get it, they weren't really injured but were claimed to be) soldiers who formed the "core" of the army that drove the Thalmor back anyhow.

With this depiction, I fail to see an independent Skyrim after a bloody, costly civil war in lives and resources defending alone against the full might of the Dominion.

Stormcloak victory means 1) the Dominion invades Skyrim, and the Empire who has been shunted out (and weakened further) simply cannot help to defend (nor may it be willing to do so). Furthermore, it's an awkward situation (yet again) where the need to maintain the treaty between the Empire and the Dominion means not being able to support Skyrim (or violating the treaty). Skyrim, seceded from the Empire, is not a part of the treaty. It's a similar situation to Hammerfell no longer being part of the Empire (meaning the Dominion can go all willy-nilly on it any time they want to do so). I believe the demand for "half of Hammerfell" was purposely intended to create such a situation.

Furthermore, a huge misconception here has been that the Empire is "in bed with the Thalmor." Sorry, but you may want to read multiple resources and hear multiple perspectives before hearing a few off-handed Stormcloak character complaints not based on specific facts. The Emperor initially refused to disband the Blades, ban Talos worship, and cede parts of Hammerfell. This is what started the war. Ultimately, the Emperor had not choice but to sue for peace later on and accept these terms to not have the Empire completely fall apart that moment. By the way, I imagine humans reproduce at a much faster rate (with quicker ages to advlthood) than Altmer (or even Bosmer?) do. Biding time is in the Empire's favor.

The other scenario, or 2), that I nearly forgot about, would involve the Dominion simply going directly after the Empire at this point. There is literally only Cyrodiil and High Rock at this point, meaning the Dominion will likely have an easy time of it without Nord forces supporting.

I find it highly unlikely that Ulfric would ally with the Empire as an autonomous nation if the Empire were invaded--Ulfric would simply prepare for war and defend/garrison Skyrim, I would imagine (yes, this is conjecture, but seems likely). Furthermore, if Skyrim is invaded first instead, the Empire would have to be willing to break a treaty to support Skyrim, commit more troops it does not have (and had already lost many in the civil war to Skyrim anyway), and risk Cyrodiil due to its closer proximity to Dominion holdings. Just doesn't seem like it will happen.

Yes, I dislike banning the worship of a deity that isn't evil/heinous. Yes, I don't like the decision to behead me at the beginning of the game (although is the fault of one individual, not a nation).

This has already been pasted, but I think it makes excellent background for understanding the gravity of the situation: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

If the Dominion ended up crushed and Skyrim sued for peace afterward, I could understand. That being said, if the Dominion were crushed, there would be no ban on Talos worship anyhow.

Furthermore, the Jarl of Whiterun does exemplify the qualities of a good leader. I liked his decision-making and philosophy a lot. Killing him would make little sense to me.

This is about the very existence of all non-mer races (and even the Bosmer and Dunmer, too, actually). That needs to happen first. And like I said, the ban on Talos worship is not something likely to persist if the Dominion is routed.

My point is that the Empire is not jumping into bed enjoyably with the Dominion--they had no other choice, and even at first refused to do so.

Anyhow, I'm rambling, and I think those with access to more information are tending to lean towards the Imperial perspective. Even being peaceful or negotiating a stalemate deal seems like a loss all-around. The Thalmor would most hate a decisive victory for the Empire, so I'm leaning towards making that happen.

On a sidenote, the hyper-nationalism/bigotry of the Stormcloaks (or some of them) does make them seem somewhat hypocritical in their argument for freedom of religion, but if I thought Skyrim seceding successfully would screw the Thalmor harder, I would deal with that later and help the Stormcloaks now. Priorities, people. I think a partial problem, besides not thoroughly examining all of the data before making a decision, is that one's own ego is too involved in choosing a side. "The Imperials tried to behead me. Dealbreaker." Yeah, I thought so too. But the continuation of humanity and all non-mer races (instead of their genocide) is more important to me. I'd take that beheading now if I thought it would lead to the Dominion being defeated. I guess this is a partial problem with playing a character that becomes super-powerful and badass--we tend to put way too much weight on our character's life and how we are treated (who was nice/mean to us, etc.) instead of deciding what's best for all involved.

The smart move would be to aid the Empire in such an instance. It would be in Ulfric's own best interest to do so, but my believing that he would aid the Empire is also conjecture. A historical example would be Visigoths and Franks teaming up with the Romans in order to counter the threat from Attila the Hun.
But jump into the bed they did. I don't see how they could have done anything different, but what happened in Skyrim was partly due to this Peace Treaty. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I get the argument about supporting the Empire in order to strengthen it enough to balance the power of the Thalmor. I am just not convinced that this is possible. Destroying the Stormcloaks and keeping the Talos-ban will leave the way open for some other charismatic usurper of crowns = yet another civil war.
Also, if you have played through the Dark Brotherhood's questline:
Overall I do not disagree with you as such. Your points are valid, but they rest on conjecture - mind you I don't claim that my arguments don't suffer the same flaw.

The rebels are still deluded. Do you really think that you could stop the Thalmor on your own? This is why a fool should never lead other fools.

The Empire must win, or we will see a return to the mythic era, when Mer enslaved man. Even though the Empire is weak, and falling like the Roman Empire, she still has a little bite. If the Redguards, Nords, Imperials, and the Dunmer could unite together for one, final crowning moment before the bitter end, then perhaps there is still hope.

The Empire must hold together now more than ever, it is selfish and idiotic to think of rebellion and secession at such a dark time. Once the Aldmeri have fallen a second time, then the Empire will have fulfilled its final, greatest achievement, and then, can die with honor.

But, I fear that this shall not happen, and that a second dark age is coming, not just for man, but for anyone who is not an Altmer, whether you are Khajiit, Argonian, Dunmer, Bosmer, Breton, Imperial, etc., it does not matter. They shall enslave the world as what little remains of the empire crumbles into petty civil wars, heralding the end of the age of peace, and hope for all.

Even my cruel, evil, dark High Elf Sorceror sees this. He sees that his own people have gone insane, and that all the other races need to band together, or all of them shall face destruction. Even now there are "purges" in Valenwood, with Bosmer disappearing, never to be seen again. And it won't end there. No, it won't end until only the Altmer remain in Tamriel.

So, now, we must stand united, or fall, never to return.

I am guessing that I am the one being addressed here.
I have not claimed that Skyrim can defeat the Thalmor on their own. Allied with Hammerfell and the remnants of the Empire? Perhaps...

Exactly! Remember, the Aldmeri Dominion is literally larger than the Empire at this point. It has the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elseweyr, and it has them solidly. It's still got a chunk of Hammerfell. Nobody really has Blackmarsh or Morrowind anymore, they're all kinda wrecked.

'The Empire' is down to Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Skyrim. If Ulfric takes away Skyrim, then the Thalmor can divide and conquer as they see fit. They could roll right over Skyrim as soon as the White-Gold Concordat no longer protects it; no single province, however badass, can take on three and a half other provinces at once.

This is the point at which people usually go 'But Ulfric could still ally with the Empire!'

Here's the thing; if the only way for Skyrim to survive the might of the Thalmor is to ally with the Empire, why the hell is Ulfric rebelling at all? The simplest and surest way to guarantee that Skyrim and the Empire fight as one is not to leave the Empire in the first place! The Stormcloak Rebellion doesn't actually improve Imperial unity a damn bit, and it doesn't improve the strategic position vs. the Thalmor a damn bit. A recently-rebelled, weakened-by-civil-war Skyrim in a shaky alliance (and they could never have a non-shaky alliance in this generation; the bad feeling just won't magically go away) with a weakened-by-civil-war Empire is nowhere near as good vs. the Thalmor as a unified, non-weakened-by-civil-war Empire would be.

Every time you say 'Ulfric would still need the Empire to beat the Thalmor', that's a concession that Ulfric shouldn't be trying to leave the Empire in the first place.

Because even in the best-case scenario (i.e., the Empire and the Stormcloak Kingdom actually can work together at all with any real degree of coordination), the Stormcloak Rebellion is still a big net loss in global strategic position for everybody not the Aldmeri. Ulfric is not building a stronger world vs. the Thalmor that would otherwise have existed if he'd done nothing. His victory would gain nothing for mankind.

It would improve Ulfric's personal situation a helluva lot, though.

And this is why Ulfric is a selfish power-hungry bastard who doesn't really care about anyone but himself.

No wonder the Thalmor had such success using him as a hand puppet. People who are totally self-centered are often the easiest to manipulate.

Chuckg, you are right about the Stormcloak rebellion being a bad thing. It would have been better if the offended Nords accepted to keep their Talos worship hidden and instead prepared for the coming war with the Dominion. Thing is, the rebellion did happen. By the time you have any say in the matter, half of Skyrim is part of this uprising. It shouldn't have happened, but it did and how can you prevent such a thing from happening again? The freedom of worship isn't exactly a bad PR cause and I'm sure the Thalmor would find a way of lending their support to future uprisings. Can the Empire really win the war in Skyrim without first having dealt with the Thalmor?




Edit:fixed Typo

No, no the Empire cannot.

So, let us hope for another miracle of peace.

A "Warp in the North" so to speak. That is the last hope I can see. Otherwise, I fear that not only the Empire, but all of Tamriel, shall fall to the Aldmeri.

We really have no hope left at all.