I have to step out-of-character for a second to just say that this Topic alone stands as proof of how immersive the TES still is. After all that's been said and done, they still managed to provide a world with no easy answer or black&white decisions of "good versus bad". More than that, a world that makes us care to the point of a heated debate like this.

Regardless of opinions, props to OP and everyone else. God, what a great game...

Now my two cents:

Yes, Skyrim's independence will not bring about Utopia, we have problems, big ones, inside our borders. Yes, a lot of us Nords are disingenuous when we blame the Empire for everything that went wrong in our land. Yes, a lot of us are racists, we deprive the Kahjit, the Dunmer, the Argonians and the Redguards of the term "kinsman", even the Imperials, when a lot of them spilt their blood, and that of their own families, for this good earth that we call Skyrim.

However, brothers and sisters, no one has the right to invade and estabilish rules, no matter how sane, no matter how effective. Flaws and problems, no matter how deep and hard, should never allow for the argument of foreign rule over our lives.

Ask an american: their country have problems, big ones. They have issues of how they treat each other inside their own cities. First of all, which country doesn't have that? Second, and most important of all, ask if they'd trade their freedom and independence (gained through blood and struggle, both with inside and outside enemies) for the sake of a "better" society.

The answer would most certainly be no! So I say it with the same strength of my thu'um: Free Skyrim!

I agree, but there is a time and a place for such debate. I am fine if the Empire falls. All good things must end.

But, not now. We need to unite one last time, and then, we can die away. We cannot risk a new Mythic Era for the sake of the freedom of a single nation. Not in this dire hour. Once all the former provinces have fallen into Barbarism, then, finally, with its blade deep into the heart of the Thalmor, the Empire can die.

Yeah, it can. It does if you support the Empire and with a new High King, a new generation of Jarls and a population that is not about to suport a new uprising, tired of war though they are.

With the Thalmor still pulling strings behind the curtains? If there is still people with the motive, the Thalmor might just provide the means. They are, after all, free to roam Skyrim as they please.
Either way, it requires a lot of speculation to answer. Hopefully we'll learn more through future DLCs.

Since it took a Thalmor puppet who was also a short-sighted self-centered powerhungry [censored] on a truly staggering level for it to happen in the first place (again, the triggering incident of the Stormcloak Rebellion was the Markarth Incident, and Ulfric didn't go rogue from the Thalmor until afterwards), I think I don't have to worry about the Stormcloak Rebellion being an easily reproducible event. Ulfric's head on a stick and a solid Imperial garrison in Windhelm should knock the problem from 'civil war' back down to 'bandits with delusions of grandeur'. We can live with the latter.

The whole 'the Stormcloak Rebellion would just recur anyway! The only way for true peace to reign is to let them win!' theory is fatally flawed -- it ignores the fact that the Aldmeri had to manipulate the Stormcloak Rebellion into existing in the first place.

The whole 'Ulfric is resistant to direct contact' in his dossier means 'Now that Ulfric is making a bid for High King, he thinks he doesn't need us anymore', not 'And Ulfric is now too noble to work for us'.

PS: Also, the only way for the Stormcloak Rebellion to be over with quickly is if the Dragonborn throws in with the Imperials, so the problem is moot anyway; anybody wants to be the next Jarl Ulfric, he can talk to Odaahviing's breath weapon. Remember, the guy who determines which way Skyrim falls is you, and you by yourself have the power to shift entire wars.

It's just, while you're powerful enough to decide the fate of the Stormcloak Rebellion on your own, I don't think even you can beat the entire freaking Aldmeri Dominion without the Empire.

Or maybe continuing guerrilla warfare that ties down the Empire's legions? You'll have to somehow make sure that no one - not even the mills and farms lying far away form the Keeps and Cities - supports the Stormcloaks. The current Empire is way to weak to handle that on top of all the problems it is facing.
Didn't require much of an effort though, eh? The White-Gold concordat set the stage for a Stormcloak rebellion. Remove Ulfric from the picture and you have the same situation - just no Ulfric. The whole Talos-thing is a great unifier and the Empire actively enforcing the ban helps persuade many a Nord that the Empire is an enemy. Throw in a bit of Thalmor support and you got yourself a nice little war brewing.
Agreed. Must be beaten together with the Empire. My claim is that the current configuration of Imperials ruling Nords is inferior to Imperials and Nords acting as equal partners in an alliance between two independent countries.

And yet its somehow strong enough to help beat the Aldmeri if King Ulfric allies with them.

You are trying to have it both ways, Stormcloak.

PS: Guerilla warfare is not a magical solution for beating a strong Imperial occupation. Look up the history of guerrilla warriors who actually won without external aid and supplies. Not even the American Revolution qualifies; we had France. (Neither do the Viet Cong; they had North Vietnam and China.)

Not by itself it didn't. Thirty year time lag between then and now. An entire generation of Nords were able to live tolerably well under it.

Again, you are denying this plain fact.

Which is why the Stormcloak rebellion is 29 years old. Oh wait -- its not.

The Aldmeri manipulated the Stormcloak Rebellion into being. If the rebellion was inevitable on its own, they would not have had to exert themselves. Nobody pays for something that they're about to get for free anyway. And yet the Thalmor did. Why? Because otherwise, it would NOT have happened.

By claiming that unending rebellion is inevitable, you're saying things that just aren't so.

And Ulfric magically makes his people, who he led into power on a platform of anti-Imperial fanaticism, suddenly turn around and accept fighting and dying alongside the Empire how? Mass mind control?

Ok I realise it is not black and white for picking sides but I think the Imperials are the better choice. I myself haven't picked a side yet but from the start of the game I was for siding with the Stormcloaks but the more I play of the game the more I want to side with the Legion. The main reason why I was still inclined to go for the Stormcloaks was because they helped me escape at the very start of the game from Helgan but then I found out that you can follow the imperial guy instead and so the Legion would help you escape which makes up for them about to chop your head off at the start. I have now become the Thane in every city apart from Windhelm and there are many reasons I think the Legion is the better option and these are;

Ulfric killed the High King in a fair challenge that he was allowed to do? No the honorable and noble Ulfric used his voice to shout the High King into pieces and then fled the scene. Yes he had the right to challenge and by law the High King had to accept but the fact is he did accept rather than resort to other means and the fact that he stood no chance against someone that could shout and in my eyes it was pretty much murder. Also why did he flee if it was in the law?

The Thane of Solitude tells you that if Ulfric had just asked the High King to make an Independent Skyrim then he would of probably agreed as he actually believed in Talos and had some respect for Ulfric. This would of prevented a civil war of Nords against Nords and would also of prevented Ulfric becoming High King which is maybe why he never choice that path.

Ulfric was in the Legion and fought for the Empire in the great war therefore he must of agreed for what they stood for at some point.

Ulfric surrendered too easily rather than fight to the death for his cause and is shown as a weak man with no honour. Yet again looking out for himself rather than the cause he supports.

When Ulfric retook Markarth he murdered every man woman and child that he thought may of been connected to the uprising of the Forsworn (every child that could pick up a sword). A man in Markarth prison tells a story about how he was charged for helping the Forsworn even though he wasnt part of them. To try and save his life his daughter asks them to take her instead, so they kill his daughter and then throw him in prison for life anyway.

The Thalmor say they captured him during the war and made him believe that he helped with the capture of the Imperial City. I'm sorry but he must of given some real info if he thought that and therefore crumbled under interrogation to save his own life rather than the lifes of many others. They also say that they have made contact with Ulfric before although contact with him just now is not active as he is not communicating with them although it can be made if necessary.

It is said that the civil war did not start with the murder of the High King but infact started in Markarth when Ulfric retook power from the Forsworn. Talos worship was forbidden in the Empire due to the agreement with the Thalmor but people still did it and that were not punished for it. This however changed when Ulfric retook Markarth under the promise that he would be able to worship Talos again and because of this a lot of attention was brought to it which gave the Thalmor the excuse to go to Skyrim and make sure that the Talos was not being worshiped. The empire also then had to crack down on the worship of Talos to save the peace treaty with the Thalmor. The Thalmor also say this moment is of great importance and call Ulfric an asset for making it happen. It is also said that Ulfric had hardly any support before the Markarth incident. Taken from the book called the 'Bear of Markarth' and accounts of people in the city.

People need to realise that this is not a battle between Nords v Imperials but a civil war of mostly Nords v Nords. The imperial army in Skyrim is full of Nords and so are the towns that they currently hold. If you look at the map showing which towns belong to whom you can see that there are more imperial owned towns than Stormcloak ones that suggests more people are on the empires side rather than with the Stormcloaks.

Hammerfall was not abandoned by the Empire like many say so the excuse of "Hammerfall is Independent and won against the Thalmor therefore Skyrim can do it too" is not true. In the book 'The Great War' it tells how the Legion left a lot of soldiers in Hammerfall so many that the Thalmor still thought they were fighting a Legion. Also if the Empire had not pulled its forces back to defeat the Thalmor and push them back then the victories against the Thalmor in Hammerfall would probably not of happened.

The Thamlor is the real threat and will attack again and the human race united is the best chance they have for survival. The Empire says they are hoping to join forces with Hammerfall when this happens and I don't see the populace of Skyrimsuddenly holding hands with the Empire if the Stormcloaks won.

When you are escaping Helgan with the Imperials they try to reason with the Stormcloaks they meet in the keep to escape, however the stormcloaks refuse and attack on sight. Also the imperials focus on trying to defend Helgan which would save its residents where as the Stormcloaks just focus on saving themselves.

The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racists and see Skyrim as their own and the Empire should leave them alone. This is coming from the same folk that chased the Forsworn out of their own lands in Skyrim and chased the Snow elves underground and which turned them into the Falmer.

Just like the the book 'The Talos Mistake' people are forgetting that he was a nord who once was the Emperor that ruled the empire they are wanting to get rid of.

There is another book which explains how the Thalmor have been going throughout the Empire creating rebellions to weaken the empire and this is just another case of it happening. An example being Morrowind etc.

You also need to remember that the Empire agreed to ban Talos to save lifes. They could of left Skyrim alone but instead choice to stick with it.

I do agree however that some of the imperials are very arrogant and corrupted and examples being the Commander that issues your death at the start and the imperial torturer that refuses to help you when you are escaping the Helgan keep.

Oh yeah, you run into individual Imperials who are douchebags, just like you run into individual Stormcloaks who are swell fellows. They do that to you deliberately, to blur the big picture.

I do not know if it is strong enough, but it certainly wouldn't be a disadvantage.
I am aware of this. Yet Thalmor manipulation and the acts of Ulfric made the problem appear. I see no reason to think that once the cat is out of the bag you can just revert to how things were in the past. It is in the Thalmor's interest to stir up some trouble and so they'll continue to do so. The current generation seems to think Talos worth fighting for. The fact there were 3 decades of no open revolt doesn't mean that this can be achieved again - nor will I rule it out entirely. I merely judge that it is highly unlikely.
Good point and I agree that the Thalmor must be part of the rebellion equation. Even with an Imperial victory, the Thalmor are still present and free to roam Skyrim doing their nefarious deeds.
No. Not mind control, but the fact that they hate the Empire because they caved in to Elven demands. Galmar fights because he would rather die than let the fates men be determined by elves. Ulfric too claims to be fighting for this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJF-7g_z_so

I hope that this clarified my previous statements.

Not after they tried to kill my character for nothing, for what crossing the border into Skyrim at the wrong time. I don't like the stormcloaks and their bigotry either.

Yet Ulfric would rather give up too easily and be captured that die fighting for that cause.

'Hey, now that the Stormcloak rebellion is over, we don't need Thalmor Justicars enforcing the peace terms anymore. Get out.'

(Remember, the only reason the Justicars are able to roam around is the Stormcloak Rebellion giving them a legal pretext to 'enforce treaty terms'.)

'Psst! The elven death squads are gone. You can go back to your Talos shrines now. Just don't advertise them, OK?'

That took me ten seconds.

Again; nobody artificially creates a problem unless it doesn't actually exist naturally in the first place. The whole situation is a result of artificially manufactured tension; get rid of the manufacturer (Ulfric, in this instance), and you can fix things.

Caught at the same time a bunch of rebels and a highly wanted rebel leader were caught kind of doesn't help your case at all. Also one imperial tries to voice for you but his commander thinks otherwise.

Once they are in they don't just leave. I can't rule out that the Empire has sufficient political clout to force such a thing through, but I have yet to see any evidence of them having it.

I don't see the conflict as being this black and white. I view the Thalmor scheming as being more of a catalyst. Loads of Nords seem to be willing to fight for this cause, Ulfric or no Ulfric.

I believe that you have earned the last word in this.

That's like saying there's a crime on the street. You just happen to pass by when it happens. You get arrested because you were there, no questions asked. There is no recourse, you're going to prison whether you're guilty or not. Why does not being on the list not help my character's case. Hadvar was the only one who helped. What was my Breton guilty of, crossing the border at the wrong time so off with her head. It's ridiculous.

Especially since her main goal was to get to the College at Winterhold. She's a mage.

Right, so now you've got an Empire so weak that it can't even ask the Thalmor to leave after its won the war.

But its totally strong enough to beat the Thalmor if only they have Ulfric as their ally!

Christ. Is Ulfric supposed to be Dragon-shouting Superman or something? I thought that was my job.

Ulfric is not the [censored] indispensable savior of his people here! Why do all your scenarios assume that he is the one irreplaceable element? The guy is nothing but a net drag on the equation!

Protip: Treaties work both ways. Unless they want open war, the Empire has to obey the White-Gold Concordat, yes. But unless the Thalmor want open war, they have to obey it too. At the very least, they can't openly defy it.

And we have a big hint that right now, at this moment, the Thalmor don't like their odds if it came to open war.

That hint is, 'The Thalmor haven't already declared war'.

Edit: The Thalmor are sure-thing players. They will not push things to the point of an open break until they are certain they can win. This is why the White-Gold Concordat exists at all; both sides are playing for time right now.

But the part where the current Thalmor strategy is 'divide and conquer' suggests an obvious counter-strategy; 'don't divide. at all.' If Ulfric's too stupid to spot this, that's his problem; I am like hell going to join him in idiocy.

Just like in a hostage situation everyone is treated as terrorists at first incase there is a sleeper amongst them and until questions are asked you wont find out who is whom which was meant to happen until the carts were stopped for some reason in Helgan for a quick death with no trial. Imagine lets say for example you were caught crossing the Afghanistan border into Pakistan at the same time and same place as Bin Laden and there was a ambush waiting for him. I doubt there would be time for ask questions first and capture later. I'm not saying its correct or fair i'm just saying that being in the same place at the same time as a wanted rebel leader does not help your defense.

Yeah. Ulfric Stormcloak is the #1 wanted man in the Empire; being part of his group caught at a border crossing is going to look epically suspicious.

Remember, it isn't just you; that horse thief in the wrong time, wrong place also gets caught up in the sweep.

Which isn't to say that the Imperial Captain who just wants you killed in order to save her the trouble of thinking about it wasn't wrong, of course. Fortunately, she doesn't survive Helgen anyway.

I agree with you on 1 thing,except the last part. At the beginning of my 2nd character I joined the Stormcloaks on PURPOSE to kill the commander and the executioner since they were [censored]s. Then I will join the imperials and crush the rebellion.That way I can make justice both ways

Makes sense to me! That's what my current character is doing.

'Hahahaha, follow the Imperial guard during a jailbreak? I'll just end up being executed again as soon as the emergency is over!'

*later on*

'But on the other hand, I don't seem to be a wanted man anymore, and while Ralof was cool the Stormcloaks in general are kinda dikes. Guess I'll sign up for the Legion. Hope I don't meet Ralof during a fight, that would be sad.'

well actually my first play I joined the imperials escape and it wasn't that bad since you followed the guy that didn't want you dead. However, I don't get the satisfaction of bashing the commander and the executioner heads.What's a bigger joy then to kill the chick that would have killed you without even blinking just because you were at the wrong place at the wrong time?

Edit: it's also an argument that people keep forgetting when they pick sides. Most of their reason is ''Empire wanted my head,so I'l join Stormcloaks.'' No Empire doesn't want you dead,just some heartless chick.You join Stormcloaks during the escape and you get revenge and everything is fine.Stereotyping all of them would be kinda abusive .

But questions are asked. Hadvar asked. The beeoch didn't care. She just wanted heads to roll and Tullius was there and he wanted heads to roll too. They didn't give a d@mn so why should my Breton side with them. She's staying out of it. She doesn't like the stormcloaks but she hates like the legion more. One more thing about it, Skyrim is part of Tamriel. I'm sure there were plenty of people crossing the border at the same time as the stormcloaks. I think it was discrimination against provincials (sp).

actually you don't know what Tullius wanted.Maybe he would have demoted the commander after for injustice or executed her.Tullius himself ONLY care about the head of one guy,specifically Ulfric.

Especially as the Thalmor were doing their best to avert the execution at that point (as we know from the dossiers in the embassy)

My suggestion would be the entire reason for the stop at Helgen and rapid exectutions (rather than the planned trip to Cyrodil which Hadvar tells you was the original plan) was that Tullius wanted to carry out a (legal) execution before the Thalmor were able to avert it or go over his head.