I was also going to join the Stormcloaks as my character (Dunmer) hates Imperials, but after I found out they are a bunch of racist nords wanting Skyrim for themselves and they demanded an oath in order to join, I steped back. Now I just slaughter every Imperial or Stormcloack I find in my way. Hope I can shout apart Ulfric as wel, but I guess this is a part of the Imperail questline

When I was investigating Margaret's death in Markarth, the Stormcloak troops were always in terrible moods with me, and were just over all ignorant pigs. In the end they ALL tried to kill me and chased me out of the city (I wasn't in the Legion either.) Another time I came across a Stormcloak camp just walking through as a short cut, and they all started attacking me again for no reason (Hadn't started the Civil War quest at all) Legion never did that.
Over all the Legion have been kind to me and the Stormcloaks have just been ignorant.

I like the fact that Skyrim wants independence though, but I also believe they'd be much safer being in the Empire.

The Legion have my loyalty.

I don't think there is a good guy or a bad guy in this situation, which I really admire from Bethesda. The Nords are just trying to secure their own independence, but they're a bunch of racists and Ulfric just wants power. The Imperials are just trying to maintain stability for the good of the entire Empire. I honestly do not think Skyrim has a better chance of fending off the Altmer than the freaking Empire itself, and thus they are stronger united. Sure, banning the worship of Talos was a bad thing, but the Imperials had to make huge compromises or face annilihation, and they did the best they could.

Skyrim being indepent does not help anyone but the Altmer, in the end. Weakened by the civil war and the withdrawal of Imperial troops, not to mention the Dragons who went to town on the nation, invading Skyrim will be easy for the Thalmor, and the entire Empire will be all the weaker for it. Being part of the White-Gold concordant was the only thing protecting them, and now that they have independence, they lose that protection. Good one, Ulfric.

Friends, I do not understand this universal loathing of the Thalmor. If it weren't for them, Tamriel would have been lost to the Oblivion Crisis. These are dark and troubled times, and we live in an age of suffering. As such, sometimes certain.. extreme measures must be taken that would otherwise revolt the civilized instincts of man, beast, and mer alike. This is because we face extraordinary threats to our futures and the futures of our peoples.

For instance, take the Insidious Cult of Talos, which portrays the founder of your Empire as a raving Human Supremacist-turned-God. The continued Nord veneration of Talos is used as a front for the interests of the bloodthirsty Stormcloak savages. They're looking for that special cultist who will commit atrocities in the name of not only Human Superiority, but also Nord Supremacy, to initiate him or her into their 'inner circle'. For you, humans, so that our peoples will never have to cross blades and spill each others blood, it is for your sake that we banned the worship of Talos. For you must recall the outcome of that terrible war. We can coexist without Talos worship, or the Merethic people and Beastmen will stand together against Mankind's reawakened lust for Tyranny, and you will be dealt with in a way that will make the War look like the Emperor's birthday celebration.

(Jeez, i'm starting to appreciate the fun some people have supporting the Enclave. I'd just like to see the Thalmor get 'grayed up' a bit in a Future DLC. )

Never really thought of that way, Jenkem. I still haven't decided on a side yet, because there's always something that bothers me there. May never side, may just go hide in a cave somewhere and let the entire world bite their nails wondering where the dragonborn went. They'll never know he's drinking tons of mead and kicking it with an ice troll.

I disagree. Tulius and Rikke are reasonable authority figures. Tulius moreso, he was sent to do a job and he's getting it done.
I haven't played Stormcloak's side yet, but I do know Ulfric's right-hand man is kind of a [censored], more bloodthirsty than people claim of Ulfric himself. But the fact Ulfric holds him in such high esteem makes me like him even less.

Most of my characters choose Imperial side.

Gamlar Stone-Fist. You should try and listen to him in Windhelm after you have finished the Stormcloak campaign.

Hm. Fair enough, I'll see for myself at some point.

I still see the Empire as being the only thing which has a chance at stopping the Dominion in the next inevitable war. I wouldn't be surprised if we're going to be seeing more to this conflict in future DLC or even the next title.
I like the fact that even though individuals like Tulius secretly hate the agreement between the Dominion and the Empire, he knows the war is coming but he won't have it start before it's time.

Lol.

I'm pretty sure their greatest duty is to do as they're told. People do awful things in wars, it's just that the winners tend to write history, and make the others look like the bad guys. Morality doesn't come into it.

EDIT: Besides, Skyrim's independence does not mean that it would simply sit back and allow the empire to burn if it was in its best interests to prevent it. Ulfric already shows he has powers of reason when agreeing to the peace conference. If he thought Skyrim were at risk, he'd temporarily fight alongside the imperials without doubt.

I want an DLC where mu high elf can joine the Dominion and take over skyrim and enslave the population for the good of all.

Two points:

* The Redguard did not handle the Thalmor 'by themselves'; the Great War is what weakened the Thalmor occupation troops enough in their local area (as they'd sent them to reinforce the Imperial City) for the Redguard to have their shot afterwards. Not to mention all those Legion 'pensioners' left behind for them to recruit.

* The reason the Empire is fragmenting now is because of Ulfric Stormcloak; he chose to start a rebellion in what up until that point had been the province that was the remaining backbone of the Imperial military strength. SOB caused the very problem he's claiming to be the cure of. Isn't that conveeeeeeeeenient.

Take a read http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

Important points.
4E 173

4E 174





4E 175: The Battle of the Red Ring

So, what do we have? First, Thalmor forces in Hammerfell suffered heavy losses from Imperials. Then, when Decianus was leaving Hammerfell, he left a number of his soldiers there. At same time, Thalmor dedicated all of it's available forces to Cyrodiil.


And only THEN Reguards managed to take on the little part of the original Thalmor's force, and it took em 5 years and huge losses to draw those out.

TL;DR - if you support Stormcloacks, you support Thalmor, since Nords alone in no way will be able to survive the next war. Redguards barely managed to deal with a part of a part of Thalmor's forces

To people who hate the Stormcloaks because of Markarth:

Those aren't Stormcloaks, they're corrupt guards that are paid by the corrupt mining family there. They are being helped by Forsworn, the people of are AGAINST the nords and thus against the Stormcloaks.

Lol no. supporting Ulfric =/= supporting Thalmor. Like I said previously, Ulfric has already shown a willingness to deal with the Imperials for Skyrim's best interests; there's nothing to suggest he'd try and take them alone after winning his independence. More likely it'd be a case of 'okay we got out country back, now.. who wants to kill some Thalmor?'

And when exactly did this happen? The peace conference I remember was Ulfric deciding to use a world-threatening crisis as a perfect opportunity to screw more concessions out of the Empire. The dude threatened to take his ball and go home and let Alduin the World-Eater rampage over everything because he knew that Tullius would have to back down rather than actually allow that to happen.

IOW, Ulfric took advantage of the fact that his opponent would be concerned for the welfare of Skyrim/Tamriel as a whole than Ulfric was. Which says a lot about Ulfric, and none of it good.

Yes, because their odds would be so good with Skyrim all by itself. Especially a Skyrim weakened from a recent civil war.

Also, did you read 'The History of the Great War'? The main thing that let the Empire break the siege of the Imperial City was the arrival of the Nord expeditionary force. With Hammerfell gone, Skyrim is the last major military province the Empire has left. What does the next act of the Great War look like without it?

And before you go 'But a separate Skyrim could still ally with the Empire!'... no, no he couldn't. Listen to the Stormcloak agitprop. Ulfric is selling this to his people on a platform of '[censored] the Empire, the Empire is the Big Bad'; he's burning all his bridges there. Hell, the Stormcloak party line is that the Empire and the Thalmor are [censored] buddies.

There's also that the Empire would trust Ulfric since whenever? He's not exactly making a good impression with them, now is he? Even if Ulfric wanted to buddy up with the Empire next decade (and that's a huge freaking if, right there), its still anything but certain that the Emperor would ever go for it. Because let's face it, Ulfric has -- and this is on the record -- sold out and backstabbed every single side he's ever worked for, except his own. Man betrayed the Empire in the Great War, then he turned on his Thalmor handlers afterwards, then he murdered the High King, then he goes on to rampage against neutral jarls. Would you trust this dude in a political alliance ever? How could you? Every friend he's ever had got an axe buried between their shoulder blades.

Sure, the Thalmor ambassador's report says that a quick victory to the war is sub-optimal; they want both sides to weaken each other to the maximum extent before it finally ends. But in the long term, a Stormcloak victory is a human defeat, because what fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a tie the last time was a united empire -- a divided one can only improve their chances.

Must have been a result of your dialogue choices, The only thing that got Ulfric like that at my peace conference was the fact a Thalmor was present.


You're misunderstanding what I said. I'm saying it wouldn't be unreasonable for Ulfric to side with the empire in their war against the Thalmor after having his independence assured. He's not stupid, he'll ultimately do what he has to in order to get his way.

EDIT: you've added things to your post but I still disagree with you; without Skyrim the empire is finished, without the empire Skyrim cannot beat the Thalmor. Neither side is in a position to say 'yeah but we don't trust you'. They'd absolutely work together purely on the basis that they need to in order to survive; afterwards I have no doubt they'd go back to mugging each other off. Ulfric is no fool; if he had just won Skyrim, he wouldn't sit by and see it destroyed instantly afterwards.

So, you entirely avoided the dialogue where Ulfric demanded that a city be handed over to him, and said that if he didn't get something, the conference was over?

IOW, we're back to 'Ulfric can act like a backstabbing douchenozzle but still get what he wants because his opponent is in no position to refuse his offer without dying'.

Which is exactly the same thing I saw happen at the peace table all over again -- Ulfric making out like a bandit off of someone else's desperation.

Yeah, this is not a good recommendation.

Does Ulfric ever accept a deal in which he personally comes out behind, for the greater good of the people as a whole? Not that I know of.

I agree. Only unity amongst the human races can assure victory over the Thalmor. I just don't see how killing Ulfric, but STILL banning Talos would help. Stormcloaks are not (despite the name) an Ulfric cult. Killing the man does not kill the cause - fighting would continue until the Stormcloaks had lost so much that they no longer care about the worship of Talos. By then Skyrim isn't worth much as a province.

Ulfric seems more like the type to just fortify Skyrim versus Aldmeri incursions and leaving Cyrodiil to fend for itself. He certainly doesn't want nords to die in a war soo far away from home.

You might remember that the Empire never actually enforced the Talos worship ban for decades after the White-Gold Concordat... until somebody publicly opened up a temple of Talos and threw it in the Thalmor's face, thus taking an arrangement which had been quietly working (the Empire gets their treaty, but the Nords still get their worship on the down-low, and the Thalmor get bupkis) and instead wrecking it and allowing the Thalmor Justicars a political "in" to demand rampage rights in Skyrim.

Oh, did I say 'somebody'? I meant 'Ulfric Stormcloak'.

Like I said earlier -- the guy originally caused the exact same crisis he's claiming to be the only solution for.

That doesn't mean that he is wrong.
Ulfric may have been the catalyst, but the sentiment that he represents would exist with or without him - that is what the Thalmor exploits.

BOTH the imperials and Stormcloaks are being manipulated by the Thalmor. Overall though when you JUST take their views into account without the Thalmor dealings then I go with the imperials.

I forgot to mention that Ulfric created the crisis at the Thalmor's instigation.

No, really. The Markarth Incident was where Ulfric demanded open Talos worship as the price of his having reclaimed the Reach for Skyrim, and as the Thalmor ambassador's files show, the Markarth Incident was done at the Thalmor's behest . It wasn't until after that that Ulfric went rogue from being a Thalmor agent... but by then, the damage had already been done.

I think that the language in that dossier is way to ambiguous for you to consider this to be so. But even if, for the sake of the argument, I agree to this - Ulfric might still be the solution to the "problem". Creating a problem only you can fix seems like a sound albeit Machiavellian tactic.
Your character cannot change what happened in Markath before he/she arrived in Skyrim, but you can chose what side to join in the Civil War. Who started it is of no significance - nor is your or my feelings regarding Ulfric. Ulfric struck a nerve. He is a bit of an [censored], but people aren't joining his cause because they like arses. They support his goal - legal Talos worship in Skyrim. As long as the Empire enforces the ban on Talos-worship there will be unrest.