The Problem With Master Difficulty

Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:40 am

The blocking damage reduction works seperately from armor damage reduction, with both being capped at 80% (1000 incoming damage would be reduced to 200, then to 40, for example).

Weapons can easily be just as good at blocking as shields.

e: Blocking is capped at 85%
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Emilie Joseph
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:47 pm

As long as you don't care if the character dies or not, it really doesn't matter where you put the points. The only reason I still stack Health is that I play Dead-is-Dead and need to avoid being in one-shot situations. That's also why I still employ crafting, although my experiences on low-level 2H melee characters have shown that it's eminently possible to not do so and still survive, provided you actually pay attention.
...
Which brings up the question of just how flexible gear choices should be on Master difficulty. I would say 'not very', since the point is that you should need the better stuff in order to get by. I do realize that this would somewhat stratify gear for a given archetype, but then any warrior with a grain of sense would want to have the best possible armor he could get prior to delving into some godforsaken hole in the ground.
DID is almost the opposite of my play-style, though there are similarities. Not that I try to get myself killed--I do everything I can to survive--but I get most of my satisfaction from overcoming overwhelming odds. You don't get situations like that without breaking a few eggs. I'm essentially constantly throwing my character into very dangerous situations and seeing if I can survive through wits and reflexes. I don't mind if I die a few times in the attempt as long as I have a great memory of playing incredibly well and surprising myself with my own skill and tactics. If I played like this with a fully perked out character using top tier gear I would never get those experiences. It would just be an endless series of me beating the enemy, over and over again. That just feels very bland to me. Playing DID would just make me far too cautious. I'd either be afraid to take the risks that lead to the experiences I get right now, or I'd spend 99% of my time creating characters and playing Helgen Keep.

One of my all time greatest memories of Skyrim was fighting a named draugr. It was about 10 minutes into a mass boss battle (2 named draugr, about a dozen other draugr of various levels) I was almost dead, being chased by some scary dead chick on a high, trapped bridge, my follower was several rooms away by this point and I was about to get 1 shot by this b*. I was out of Stamina, running for dear life, and just barely out of her reach. At the last second, before reaching one of the swinging spike ceiling traps, my shout cooldown ended and I whirlwind sprinted past the trap. I had just enough time to turn and see the draugr raise her sword for the final killing blow when the trap slammed into her and set her flying off the bridge. It was epic. The timing could not have been better if it had been scripted. The elation and relief (and satisfaction) of that moment was tremendous. It would be a shame to lose out on those kinds of experiences by never being forced to play at the edge of my abilities.

The problem with difficulty making certain types of gear obsolete is, in part, an engine limitation. If you had a variety of dodging maneuvers available that depended on your ability, the weight of your armor, etc., you could create a successful style from almost any type of armor. Someone in incredibly heavy, bulky armor just shifts around to use the armor to deflect blows, someone in no armor does what I do: they avoid getting hit (I actually played in robes for a long time because it didn't matter what type of armor I wore). People wearing armor somewhere in between would shift or dodge depending on the type of attack. The game doesn't give you enough control over your movements to make that possible.
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Cameron Garrod
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:46 am

It's a fantasy game, not real life...
In the scenario you describe there's no purpose in leveling or even in upgrading your equipment....a random bandit with a rusty sword can kill you in one hit...
And you want a fight with a dragon to be epic?If a bandit can kill your level 60 Dragonborn "quickly", then a dragon could just land on you and crush you to death...you survive the crash?His breath will disintegrate you and melt your armor.
Total lenght of the fight...5 seconds.

Luckily, this is a game so a random bandit with a rusty sword cannot kill my lvl 50, fully armored, stormcaller Dragonborn...
I am with Kisni on this. Previously, I was fighting dragon priests but my damage output was lower than their healing rates. It was about spamming attacks as quickly as possible. I made a mod that increases damage 2x the master on both by us and to enemies. I think the difference should be between, 1 or 2 attacks. Now that makes all the difference, everything makes sense in such condition, my damage health potions are now useful. I don't have to use arrow damage multiplier mods. You can't really beat the balance of real life. I have to watch the archers, always... Losing sight of an archer, means death. And I did it without gimping myself. Fun and balance.

That said, I did not make that mod with smithing in mind. I don't use smithing, I won't use smithing as long as it is available only for player. This is such a logical gap, smithing can't be fixed without fixing this gap. Not to mention, I stopped level scaling completely.
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W E I R D
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:40 am

I think it is obvious what is wrong here. They didn't design this game for a level 80 character. I think a level cap of 40 and extending that exception group with places which have minimums up to level 38 would work for end game balance.

This would only work if you went back to the earlier systems of only leveling off a few skills, rather than all of them.

With Skyrim's system of "every skill levels you", they designed the world leveling/soft cap around a "typical" character - one who isn't using most skills or leveling most skills to 100. But they'll still allow the powergamer to go for the All Skills Maxed build - you can do it, but they didn't design their world to support it. It may be possible, but it's not the "intended" style of play. (Because, honestly, to max out all skills, you have to throw out any ideas of character focus / class / playstyle.)

They wanted to give people the freedom to do what they want (level off any skill, in case you realise that the skills you "picked" at the start aren't working for you), but they didn't want to "require" people to do a max-out run (and you know a good number of people feel "forced" to do something if it's presented to them. Make the game world scale to 80, and there would be a faction out there moaning that they couldn't play "the game's content" without having to do the ultra-contrived/un-RPG/un-immersive/whatever all-skills-to-100 thing.)
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Mel E
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:01 pm

This would only work if you went back to the earlier systems of only leveling off a few skills, rather than all of them.

With Skyrim's system of "every skill levels you", they designed the world leveling/soft cap around a "typical" character - one who isn't using most skills or leveling most skills to 100. But they'll still allow the powergamer to go for the All Skills Maxed build - you can do it, but they didn't design their world to support it. It may be possible, but it's not the "intended" style of play. (Because, honestly, to max out all skills, you have to throw out any ideas of character focus / class / playstyle.)

They wanted to give people the freedom to do what they want (level off any skill, in case you realise that the skills you "picked" at the start aren't working for you), but they didn't want to "require" people to do a max-out run (and you know a good number of people feel "forced" to do something if it's presented to them. Make the game world scale to 80, and there would be a faction out there moaning that they couldn't play "the game's content" without having to do the ultra-contrived/un-RPG/un-immersive/whatever all-skills-to-100 thing.)
I am glad they didn't design the world for powergamers but they are to blame for encouraging them by adding power-gaming stuff. Just cut it and call it a day. 80 is too much, however you hold it. Everyone would respect Bethesda if they do this.

PS. I am talking about perceptions and relative powers. They could have just said, "max level is 30" in previews and then said "it is 40" and everyone would have accepted it. They can still change numbers and make 80, equivalent of 40. But they still need to fix level scaling. People are ready. People are being one-shotted by level 32 characters right in the beginning if they go to right places. So, adding some level 48 characters in to the mix won't change overall perceptions. It can be done.
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LuCY sCoTT
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:07 am

...The only real answer is to half all of the fortify smithing effects, which would probably overgimp lower level players. Working around that, instead of going off %'s, Some of the Fortify Smithing effects could be flat +(skill) to make it curve more aggressively at lower levels, and wane down at higher levels...

Actually, on my first two playthroughs, I never used Smithing at all. I never even improved anything (including weapons). I just used what I found. I did enchant things, but never smithed them. The only difference seems to be about an extra 5 or so levels of further challenge.

While smithing speeds along the process it's far from being the only thing that makes the game too easy too fast.
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Samantha hulme
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:04 pm

No, that's the armor cap. You can also stack on a Shield spell (Ebony Flesh, for example) to boost it to 85% or or so, and then the blocking reduction lowers the damage to a point where the auto-regen compensates for any fractional HP loss, but only while blocking of course.

Blocking is still imperfect in that situation though, A power attack can drop your guard and open you up to another attack. I think the original "Master" Block perk, Riposte was supposed to increase the damage done to enemies during a stagger. I really wish they had kept that Perk in game.

it really makes sense about the riposte perk because, as is, all the bash perks are relatively useless due to their low damage output. another swing is much more worthwhile. just the default bash is good enough most of the time.
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Niisha
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:57 pm

I am with Kisni on this. Previously, I was fighting dragon priests but my damage output was lower than their healing rates. It was about spamming attacks as quickly as possible. I made a mod that increases damage 2x the master on both by us and to enemies. I think the difference should be between, 1 or 2 attacks. Now that makes all the difference, everything makes sense in such condition, my damage health potions are now useful. I don't have to use arrow damage multiplier mods. You can't really beat the balance of real life. I have to watch the archers, always... Losing sight of an archer, means death. And I did it without gimping myself. Fun and balance.

That said, I did not make that mod with smithing in mind. I don't use smithing, I won't use smithing as long as it is available only for player. This is such a logical gap, smithing can't be fixed without fixing this gap. Not to mention, I stopped level scaling completely.

I agree with that, but you're talking about a Dragon Priest here, not a random bandit scrub. I agree that at high levels, fights should be like you say when you're fighting truly powerful enemies...Dragon Priests, Draugr Deathlords, Ancient Dragons, Alduin.....you're powerful, but so are your enemies and one mistake could mean the difference between kill or be killed.
What I'm saying here, is that this shouldn't happen with bandits dressed in furs and armed with steel weapons, while you're a stormcaller demigod in Daedric Armor, like Kisni said.
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Kirsty Collins
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:41 pm

Actually, on my first two playthroughs, I never used Smithing at all. I never even improved anything (including weapons). I just used what I found. I did enchant things, but never smithed them. The only difference seems to be about an extra 5 or so levels of further challenge.

While smithing speeds along the process it's far from being the only thing that makes the game too easy too fast.

The initial smithing effects without perking and powergrinding are actually minimal anyway, even more so without the proper weapon skill developments. The point is to taper off the hyper-overpowered things endgame. I'd suggest the same with enchanting, that Reduce Casting cost enchatment really needs to have a decreasing return. Hurling unlimited incinerates and fireballs is as overpowered as using a Sword with 480 damage.

And don't even get me started on Stealth. That's more of an AI issue, because the actual fundamentals of stealth are fine, enemy detection just seems floored 99% of the time.

It's important to realize the distinction between the game being easy, because you're high level (40+ with excellent gear and magic) and the game being easy because it's broken (Legendary 21 Daedric Sword, 100% spell cost reduction, and right-in-front-of-you-sneaking-but-can't-see-me-even-without-invisible-in-broad-daylight stealth). The former is actually a conscious design choice in the game, the later is lack of foresight.


The commonality of RPG difficulty curve is that they actually start low Crest in the middle, then wane. I've never encountered an RPG that didn't happen with, it's just part of the baggage that comes with emphasis on physical character growth. Oblivion is the only game in recent memory that really tried to change that, and it was disastrous. Fallout 3 is the next best thing, but the much abhorred "level cap" meant that players couldn't really outgrow Deathclaws or Albino radscorpions. (inb4 dart gun or The Terrible Shotgun)

Ignoring exploits and broken mechanics, the only effective solution to Skyrim's difficulty issue, is to create content for level 80 characters, which I'm all for, but it has to be done in a natural way. Maybe some dungeons that are mostly static, and specific to extremely high characters (Blackreach would have been a great one). If out of nowhere, hyper-leveled enemies start appearing with no precedence beforehand... it really sticks out. (They did it right with Giant camps, they could do it again I'm sure)
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Jack Walker
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:30 pm

I disagree with that assumption- the 'as it should' part. The highest difficulty in a game should not 'get easier as you get stronger'. Au contraire, it should continue to ramp up the enemy's difficulty all the way through, so that even on lvl 81 of Master difficulty, with your character decked out in everything it's possible to get, and with maxed perks and everything, you should still get a decent challenge from every random bandit you meet, and a true life and death epic fight from all of the boss level monsters.
Wasn't this concept the very reason Oblivion players invented gameplay mechanics called "underleveling"? In which level 1 and level 81 poses no difference whatsoever (each level of strength is exactly the same the ones before and after)

And this very concept was what made Oblivion players condemn Bethesda's implementation to Oblivion?

Trends tend to go backwards after peak point. Now I see what that means
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Chris Guerin
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:29 am

The number one foundation for improving master difficulty in my opinion, would be improving the Ai. That alone would make the most drastic change of all beyond tweaking mechanics and damage output. After that, comes abusable mechanics, and after that, player statistic and enemy statistic disparities.

Quoting myself, on what I think ought to be one.

Spoiler
The balancing issues in Skyrim come in many areas, in my opinion. And they are all, the symptom of poor mechanical and balance design.

Player power and ability vs enemy power and abilities:

Face it, no matter how someone tries to say otherwise, our character the player is 100% designed to be a super special snowflake. 80% or more of the perks and abilities players get, are not shared by NPCs. Enemies in fact, have almost always less than 150 armor rating,very few or 0 perks, and very few spells and/or shouts. And I have never, ever heard of an rpg game that lets the player outlevel the strongest enemies in the game by almost double. That is bad design in my opinion.

The problem shows, when you bring together combinations of perks that create unbalancing effects. It is very obvious the devs did not test many combinations and perk effects, since if they had actually assigned perks to NPCs, they might have run into problems in testing, for example by fighting an npc mage who can stagger lock you. Seems to me like willful negligence, that since they did not have to give NPCs the same perks as players, they did not have to balance player perks to not be unbalanced.

The solution here, is obviously to:

1. Design with a lower, more strict level cap in mind to begin with, and gradually increase it as content designed for the upper levels is made. As it is right now, enemies basically end at level 46, when the player ends at level 81.
2. Purposefully design enemies that are above the cap, at any given time to provide additional challenge. For example, if the cap was 50, they could have enemies in the game that are always between level 51 - 57 or so.
3. Design enemies with perks and spells/special abilities in mind, so that they are not all one trick ponies. Dragons having only one shout, when they natively speak the dang language is a joke.
4. Spread enemy variety around, mix groups and unit tactics to challenge what the player is used to. For example, enemy groups are not very diverse most of the time, but what if we end up facing a group consisting of two mages that exclusively heal their allies from long range, one heavy armor, boss type enemy, two archers, and two rogues?
5. Tone down enemy and player damage, and player armor, make it more about tactics and not who can 1-shot who?

Ai behavior

The Ai in the game can be very stupid, and exploitable. I find it a bit shocking they did not program even some very basic behaviors, such as:

1. Flanking/baiting type behavior
2. Medium wind up, unblockable, extremely high damage attacks to punish turtling behind a shield
3. Some form of leashing behavior, to prevent enemy groups from being cut down one by one, and to counter perching behavior
4. Basic, high damage counter attacks to prevent mindless melee spam
5. Some basic enemy party dynamics, like mage enemies buffing and healing their allies, high health enemies trying to distract and block the player from hurting weaker enemies, etc
6. Some basic hate prioritization beyond attacking whoever has the highest health
7. npc usage of racial powers
8. Counter spells, spell absorbtion/redirection abilities

Pausing and healing

This is a pretty big one, and is just downright silly to me that the player can pause the game at any time, and heal an infinite number of times. Best solution to this in my opinion is:

1. Cut down maximum amount of restorative potions(health/magicka) that can be carried at any given time.
2. Or, put a cooldown before another potion can be used
3. Or, Force potion use to be real time, no pausing
4. Or, make all potions restore health/magicka over time instead of instantly

Uncontested player attributes, stacking enchantment values, and no usage of diminishing returns

This one, is also equally silly. Player attributes that can be increased or manipulated are static values, that are not challenged by enemies. A sensible solution would be:

1. ALL player attributes (armor, resistances, skill level, weapon damage) ought to be contested against enemy skills and values. For example, a level 20 player fighting a level 25 enemy, has all of their attributes degraded against that enemy, because the player is lower in level. For example, said level 20 player vs level 25 enemy, would have all attributes calculated as being 20% less than it actually is,, against that enemy.

2. Diminishing returns added on to all attributes, (armor, resistances, skill level, weapon damage). For example, trying to raise any of those attributes beyond a certain threshold, would require exponentially more and more gains to see any benefit, resulting in a technical soft cap. For example, with fortify one handed damage, the maximum a player could raise it to before diminishing returns kicks in should be around 25% more damage at 100 enchanting, in order to raise it from 25% to 26%, the player has to have an enchanting value of 150. And from 26% to 27%, they would need 200 etc.

3. Enchantment value inherits the highest value. For example, if a player equipped three items, one with 25% one handed, 10% one handed, and 5% one handed, the player should have 25% to one handed as it is the highest value.

Bottom line: Devs should always balance for potential. You don't ignore something Just because not everyone can do it, the fact that anyone even can needs to be accounted for. A good game developer should design content like they are playing chess against the players who utilize their content and enjoy making players earn what they get.
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Jeffrey Lawson
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:45 pm

I agree with that, but you're talking about a Dragon Priest here, not a random bandit scrub. I agree that at high levels, fights should be like you say when you're fighting truly powerful enemies...Dragon Priests, Draugr Deathlords, Ancient Dragons, Alduin.....you're powerful, but so are your enemies and one mistake could mean the difference between kill or be killed.
What I'm saying here, is that this shouldn't happen with bandits dressed in furs and armed with steel weapons, while you're a stormcaller demigod in Daedric Armor, like Kisni said.
That's when damage thresholds and locational damage enter the picture. :) I say if you are gonna do something about balance, do it right.
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Heather M
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:13 pm

Wasn't this concept the very reason Oblivion players invented gameplay mechanics called "underleveling"? In which level 1 and level 81 poses no difference whatsoever (each level of strength is exactly the same the ones before and after)

And this very concept was what made Oblivion players condemn Bethesda's implementation to Oblivion?

Trends tend to go backwards after peak point. Now I see what that means
The problem with Oblivion was that they overdid the scaling. The 'underleveling' concept actually works just fine, provided that enemy power levels do not increase in large chunks with each level gained.

The number one foundation for improving master difficulty in my opinion, would be improving the Ai. That alone would make the most drastic change of all beyond tweaking mechanics and damage output. After that, comes abusable mechanics, and after that, player statistic and enemy statistic disparities. Quoting myself, on what I think ought to be one.
Spoiler

Absolutely, none of the other suggestions will do much good if the AI remains unable to comprehend how to actually use them. I'm not sure your 'leash' idea would work, though, as part of the reason to allow them to keep pursuing is as a counter to ranged kiting tactics. What would work is not having the perches in the first place, although I'm not sure what effect(s) that would have on dungeon design.
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Tha King o Geekz
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:58 am

Ignoring exploits and broken mechanics, the only effective solution to Skyrim's difficulty issue, is to create content for level 80 characters, which I'm all for, but it has to be done in a natural way. Maybe some dungeons that are mostly static, and specific to extremely high characters (Blackreach would have been a great one). If out of nowhere, hyper-leveled enemies start appearing with no precedence beforehand... it really sticks out. (They did it right with Giant camps, they could do it again I'm sure)

I wouldn't mind having new enemies suddenly show up. It could easily have been written in. Something along the lines of the Dragonborn reaching a certain level of power awakens X, Y, Z. These X, Y, Z critters could have something to do with Alduin or the Thalmor, etc. I don't imagine it would take a team of writers more than a few good sessions to come up with something.

And yes, Blackreach would've been a sweet place to put all kinds of crazy stuff.

Anyway, in a different thread someone was asking what the best weapon enchantment is. It's sad that by the time you could get the best weapon enchantments there's absolutely no good use for them anyway. It's going from overkill to over-over-overkill. At higher levels a character should absolutlely need stuff like that to survive, not just to one-hit butcher 95% of the enemies in the game. At that point you should just be able to turn your character into a turbo charged flying blender that liquifies everything it runs into.
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lolly13
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:20 pm

I'm thankful you didn't use "DLC" and "fix" in the same sentence.
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Nick Jase Mason
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:11 pm

I'm thankful you didn't use "DLC" and "fix" in the same sentence.

Oh, I forgot to say, "They can fix it in the DLC". :biggrin:
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Clea Jamerson
 
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