The problem with previous TES games' Spell Making ability (b

Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:12 pm

At a certain point games need to provide enjoyment.

Is there a more subtle way to make lore, game mechanics, and game play work together? Sure, but it might not be worth the effort.

If the game were 100% realistic most of our characters would die of whooping cough or the flu before we reached level five.

This
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Brooke Turner
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:47 pm

Umm, spell creation didn't work like that. It was possible to abuse the system, but less so than the current crafting mechanics, so that's the worst argument, anyway.

Besides the fun, creativity, and the immersive feeling that you were playing an actual mage, there was one absolutely essential element of spell making: it provided an in-game mechanic for fixing bugs. Many of the spells BGS provided were useless, and spell making allowed you to create a useful version of a spell effect.

Skyrim is slightly improved in this regard. Now spells are usually useful at least for a few early levels, and then become only mostly useless. (exaggerated a bit to prove a point, but only a bit)
By abusing we had the choice to make things as powerful or as weak or as much in the middle ground as we wanted them to be.

Spell making allowed us to create our mages however we wished, without it magic has lost its magic its soulless.

Skyrim magic is completely underwhelming and it lacks diversity, diversity we once had.
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Chantelle Walker
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:26 pm

Shalidor's Mirror, Ulm's Juicedaw's Feather, Vivec's Kiss, Tinur's Hoptoad, Ondusi's Open Door, Erelvam's Wild Sty, Alad's Caliginy, Golanar's Eye Maze, Berevusa's Averted Eyes, Tevral's Hawkshaw, Almalexia's Grace, Sotha's Mirror, Vivec's Feast, Tranasa's Spelltrap, Vivec's Tears, Vivec's Touch, Rilm's Cure, Selyn's Gift, Balyna's Antidote, Vivec's Mercy, Rest of St. Merris, Balyna's Soothing Balm, Balyna's Efficacious Balm, Veloth's Grace, Veloth's Benison, Balyna's Perfect Balm, Baronoff's Bloody Icicle, Enemies Explode (created by the mage in the Bravil guild hall), Essence Drain (created by Mannimarco), Notorgo's Curse, Feet of Notorgo, Lord Mhas' Vengeance, Fader's Leaden Flesh, Dedres' Masterful Eye, Tevil's Peace, Didala's Knack, Daydene's Panacea, Salen's Vivication, Daerir's Blessing, Daerir's Miracle, Drathis' Soulrot, Feldram's Trepidation, Tendil's Trembling, Reynos' Beast Finder, Radrene's Spellbreaker, Alvusia's Warping, Taldam's Scorcher, Selis' Fiery Ward, Icarian Flight (created by Tarhiel), Gonar's Goad, Monden's Instigator, Illnea's Breath, Drathis' Winter Guest, Radia's Icy Mask, Uth's Hand of Heaven, Prince Ov's Brightbal, Lliros' Glowing Eye, Galm's Seal, Ekash's Lock Splitter, Sertists' Porphyry, Tousu's Abiding Beast, Tevlin's Courage, Inas' Chastening, Tranasa's Spelltwist, Fphyiggi's Gem Feeder, Tranasa's Spellmire, Reynos' Fins, Inasi's Mystic Finger, Daynar's Airy Bubble and Selyn's Mist Slippers are all either named spells or explicitly created by mages.

So much for "not lore friendly".

Like I said before, Spells are made by people, they don't come from nothingness. Also I don't know about your entire list, are the ones that start with Vivec created by Vivec or just named after him? Anyway sure most of these mages created these spells.

However, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it by standing in front of a glorified music stand and pouring literally tons of gold into it somehow (assuming 1 septim is 1 ounce of gold)
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Trevor Bostwick
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:15 am

It doesn't seem lore friendly.

If spells can be made by anyone why are there so very few spells (compared to infinite varieties possible) for sale?

Why was that chick in Chorrol so desparate to get Finger of the Mountain if she can just make a better spell any time she wants?

Why don't the enemies ever hit you with a 100% weakness to Magic 1 second, 100% weakness to fire 1 second, and 100 fire damage 1 second spell?
lol not lore friendly? where do you think spellmaking came from in the first place?
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louise tagg
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:55 pm

I'll get slammed by at least two specific indivisuals for this, but I say, forget spellmaking for now.

I'd rather have them fix what Skyrim already has, so that the Magic system is useful, interesting and fun in and of itself. It's got potential, it just lacks veriety with regards to spell effects. That, and magic doesn't scale properly so it stays useful at later levels
I think spellmaking is a great thing to have, but it shouldn't be the only reason that magic is useful or fun to use, like it was in the last two titles. If bethesda can make a magic system that can stand on its own two feet without Spellmaking, add it in(or else I will be angry). It shouldn't be the only good thing about magic
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Manuel rivera
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Like I said before, Spells are made by people, they don't come from nothingness. Also I don't know about your entire list, are the ones that start with Vivec created by Vivec or just named after him? Anyway sure most of these mages created these spells.

However, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it by standing in front of a glorified music stand and pouring literally tons of gold into it somehow (assuming 1 septim is 1 ounce of gold)
You should really read my links magic was created by Magnus.

The spells was named after him.

The only thing it did not show was the manipulation of Aetherius.

It sounds like to you want to see the act like we do with alchemy and smithing and so in Skyrim: if it was in the game we probably could.
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CRuzIta LUVz grlz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:32 pm

I'll get slammed by at least two specific indivisuals for this, but I say, forget spellmaking for now.

I'd rather have them fix what Skyrim already, so that the Magic is useful, interesting and fun in and of itself. It's got potential, it just lacks veriety with regards to spell effects. That, and magic doesn't scale properly so it stays useful at later levels
I think spellmaking is a great thing to have, but it shouldn't be the only reason that magic is useful or fun to use, like it was in the last two titles. If bethesda can make a magic system that can stand on its own two feet without Spellmaking, add it in(or else). It shouldn't be the only good thing about magic
It needs to get added in and not forgotten it gave us options as mages it improves the entire system.

They do need to fix Skyrim yes, the bugs. Then they can add is a useful interesting system with the old spells we lost alongside spell creation, then magic would be a lot more fun. This magic system seems just like a foundation to me just the start of a system, the new effects have potential with spell creation. No but it can be the best thing thing not the only good thing, I would hardly call a lot of the magic that we have had in the history of this series terrible.
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Benji
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:59 pm

If they were to add spellmaking they would need to do something about the easily obtainable 100% spell cost reduction.

As opposed to melee types or archers that can attack 100% without using one bit of Stamina?
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Abel Vazquez
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:56 am

It needs to get added in and not forgotten it gave us options as mages it improves the entire system.

They do need to fix Skyrim yes, the bugs. Then they can add is a useful interesting system with the old spells we lost alongside spell creation, then magic would be a lot more fun. This magic system seems just like a foundation to me just the start of a system, the new effects have potential with spell creation. No but it can be the best thing thing not the only good thing, I would hardly call a lot of the magic that we have had in the history of this series terrible.
I'm referring to base spells, not custom ones. I think that a game should stand on the content it gives us, not the content it lets us make ourselves. I would rather have a magic system that can stand on its own merits WITHOUT requiring its users to create their own spells. Options are cool, yes. But I've always believed that we should have plenty of options that are also well-made options. I don't care how many flavors of ice cream I'm offered if they all run more than the Olympic marathon team as soon as I try to enjoy it. There is a middle ground, and that's what I want to see

I do want to see spellmaking. But I want to see a better magic system first. Skyrim has the start of a great new system, but it has a LOT of room for improvement. Fix that first, then we can see about spellmaking
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Czar Kahchi
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:00 pm

It sounds like to you want to see the act like we do with alchemy and smithing and so in Skyrim: if it was in the game we probably could.

Not really

Making spells by giving gold to nobody in particular is just a flawed concept in general. Remember how the apprentice in the mages college was making her spell, testing and retesting, research and refining, etc.
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cosmo valerga
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:26 am

I'm referring to base spells, not custom ones. I think that a game should stand on the content it gives us, not the content it lets us make ourselves. I would rather have a magic system that can stand on its own merits WITHOUT requiring its users to create their own spells. Options are cool, yes. But I've always believed that we should have plenty of options that are also well-made options. I don't care how many flavors of ice cream I'm offered if they all run more than the Olympic marathon team as soon as I try to enjoy it. There is a middle ground, and that's what I want to see

I do want to see spellmaking. But I want to see a better magic system first. Skyrim has the start of a great new system, but it has a LOT of room for improvement. Fix that first, then we can see about spellmaking

I don't think they ever will fix it unfortunately. The fact that damage does not scale, how they designed their Perk tree, and how Dual Casting was implemented is too complex and sticky to fix. You see, it isn't just Magic that is lacking in Skyrim - it is the ENTIRE system, which includes Enchanting.

For them to "Fix" Magic in Skyrim, they would need to completely overhaul the Perk tree, how Dual-Casting is handled, as well as how Enchanting is handled. Magic in Skyrim is incredibly bloated. If I want to deal ranged damage, the only thing I need worry about is Archery, however for a mage, to JUST rely on Destruction, is iffy. Instead, you need to spend a whole lot of points just to be remotely effective. On top of that, spells and classifications are uninteresting. Fire, Shock, Frost - not very cool. Bigger AE and more damage. There is nothing unique about them really. Frost slows and deals Stam damage, Shock does Magicka damage, and targets on Fire take extra damage along with DoT. It is disheartening that they could not be more creative, but I think this is largely to do with their Perk tree and Dual Casting. You have two more limitations and parameters. It seems like they ran out of creative juices and stripped most spells and put them as Perks, which is very sad.
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Cat
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:48 pm

I'll get slammed by at least two specific indivisuals for this, but I say, forget spellmaking for now.

I'd rather have them fix what Skyrim already has, so that the Magic system is useful, interesting and fun in and of itself. It's got potential, it just lacks veriety with regards to spell effects. That, and magic doesn't scale properly so it stays useful at later levels
I think spellmaking is a great thing to have, but it shouldn't be the only reason that magic is useful or fun to use, like it was in the last two titles. If bethesda can make a magic system that can stand on its own two feet without Spellmaking, add it in(or else I will be angry). It shouldn't be the only good thing about magic

if spellcrafting is put in, you don't need to balance magic because it will solve itself.
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Matt Fletcher
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:57 am

I do want to see spellmaking. But I want to see a better magic system first. Skyrim has the start of a great new system, but it has a LOT of room for improvement. Fix that first, then we can see about spellmaking
No offense, but expecting a balance fix is about as realistic as expecting spell making. Maybe less, because it wouldn't shock me to see a half-finished spell-creation implementation in a DLC.

If you're on PC, there are already decent spell balance mods, and they'll be really good after the CK is released. The same is probably true for spell making.

If you're not on PC, you're out of luck. Sorry. I wish BGS cared about these issues, but they don't.
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patricia kris
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:10 pm

I'm referring to base spells, not custom ones. I think that a game should stand on the content it gives us, not the content it lets us make ourselves. I would rather have a magic system that can stand on its own merits WITHOUT requiring its users to create their own spells. Options are cool, yes. But I've always believed that we should have plenty of options that are also well-made options. I don't care how many flavors of ice cream I'm offered if they all run more than the Olympic marathon team as soon as I try to enjoy it. There is a middle ground, and that's what I want to see

I do want to see spellmaking. But I want to see a better magic system first. Skyrim has the start of a great new system, but it has a LOT of room for improvement. Fix that first, then we can see about spellmaking
It should stand on its own, the magic in Skyrim has trouble doing this.
More options are great, we agree on that. The more options could be added with the older base spells we had and spell creation. Sure the system could be great on its own. Let spell making enhance the experience I say.
I like complex food dishes with a lot of depth and flavor, but a hobby of mine is cooking.
I am glad you want to see spell creation, I want it with a better magic system, bring back the old spell types give us spell creation, its better right there.
Not really

Making spells by giving gold to nobody in particular is just a flawed concept in general. Remember how the apprentice in the mages college was making her spell, testing and retesting, research and refining, etc.
Seems like, you ignored the links about where magic came from.

Studying an arcane text would be good yes, then you could manipulate the magical energies within great. Your enchanting skill should determine what and how powerful your enchantment is, I think that is agreeable.
if spellcrafting is put in, you don't need to balance magic because it will solve itself.
It would allow us to play how we want with spell casters, I agree.
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Taylor Thompson
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:02 am

A tangible representation of the Arcane, through study, philosophy, Ethos, and scientific logic. Not lore friendly? Blasphemy. The Spell Making Altar represented spell creation and manipulating the Magicka of Mundus on an intelligent level. Spell Creation allowed outside the box thinking, personal customization above and beyond niche archetypes, new strategies, play-styles and a feeling of corporeal accomplishment, creatively. Pretty much no reason to get rid of it.
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:47 am

A tangible representation of the Arcane, through study, philosophy, Ethos, and scientific logic. Not lore friendly? Blasphemy. The Spell Making Altar represented spell creation and manipulating the Magicka of Mundus on an intelligent level. Spell Creation allowed outside the box thinking, personal customization above and beyond niche archetypes, new strategies, play-styles and a feeling of corporeal accomplishment, creatively. Pretty much no reason to get rid of it.

It did not coincide with their Dual-Casting system.
It did not coincide with their Perk system.

Could you get it to work with these? Yes, but my guess is they painted themselves into a corner and could not easily do this so Spell Crafting was not implemented.
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:38 pm

Spellmaking did make spell sellers redundant, and did create a problem with balance. But more importantly than either of these factors, it was FUN.

Sadly these days FUN takes the back seat.

Balanced combat could potentially add more fun than spellmaking. However, it's clear in Skyrim that either balancing combat wasn't one of their priorities at all, or they just are just incredibly bad at it.

IMO they should either give up on trying balance things and bring back overpowered fun stuff like levitation, mark/recall, etc. etc. back in TES VI, or actually put some serious effort into balance. Their ideas for what is/isn't a reasonable duration and cost for a spell are clearly way off compared to what a player considers useable, as evident by master spells especially.

Although I suppose when they can actually make balanced combat, they'll be at a point at which they should be able to make balanced spell making as well.
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Vera Maslar
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Seems like, you ignored the links about where magic came from.

Studying an arcane text would be good yes, then you could manipulate the magical energies within great. Your enchanting skill should determine what and how powerful your enchantment is, I think that is agreeable.

I didn't ignore them, but I also didn't see anything about turning gold into magical power, so I don't know what that has to do with the links you provided.

I'm not against spell creation completely, but the way it worked in Oblivion was just so gamey and cheap.

If you want to see how many types of spells are possible with just a few spell effects and several spell permutations, check out the game http://store.steampowered.com/app/42910/ and is great fun. If the game had a spell creation system like Magicka (although more formal spellmaking rather than the create and cast on the fly system in that game) I would love it.
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:23 pm

It did not coincide with their Dual-Casting system.
It did not coincide with their Perk system.

Could you get it to work with these? Yes, but my guess is they painted themselves into a corner and could not easily do this so Spell Crafting was not implemented.
Yeah, they ruined the magic system with a gimmick and pretty graphics and lost the variety, customising and RP potential that was SC. If mods can make SC viable, which Im sure they will, then Beth should have been able to as well.
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:25 pm

Balanced combat could potentially add more fun than spellmaking. However, it's clear in Skyrim that either balancing combat wasn't one of their priorities at all, or they just are just incredibly bad at it.

IMO they should either give up on trying balance things and bring back overpowered fun stuff like levitation, mark/recall, etc. etc. back in TES VI, or actually put some serious effort into balance.

Exactly. I don't know why they even bothered with trying to balance the game themselves. Put a fricking slider in the game options, put some toggles to increase/decrease the difficult (such as encounter quantities/frequency, spells/abilities enemies use, elite version spawns etc.) and call it a day. The problem is they have this huge variable system and try to balance it based on some illogical "average" player they have identified. It just does not work, let the players have control over their balance outside of gimping their character, intentionally not taking perks, etc. and it won't matter how powerful you make things as you can always have the player tweak the difficulty to match it.
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maria Dwyer
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:09 pm

Yeah, they ruined the magic system with a gimmick and pretty graphics and lost the variety, customising and RP potential that was SC. If mods can make SC viable, which Im sure they will, then Beth should have been able to as well.

I agree but does this surprise you? Games now are all this way. New features are not thought through - at all. The dual casting system is a great example. It absolutely svcks and is incredibly limiting. The Perk system does not make me feel specialized but rather confined since without Perks things scale so dismally you basically shouldn't even have it in the game.
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Juan Cerda
 
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Post » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:36 pm

I agree but does this surprise you? Games now are all this way. New features are not thought through - at all. The dual casting system is a great example. It absolutely svcks and is incredibly limiting. The Perk system does not make me feel specialized but rather confined since without Perks things scale so dismally you basically shouldn't even have it in the game.
Not really a surprise. I knew we would be getting less ever since they started announcing what wasn't going to be in Skyrim. I didnt however think for even one second that there would ever be an ES without SC, until Todd's Spreadsheety BS PR.
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Mackenzie
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:52 am

I didn't ignore them, but I also didn't see anything about turning gold into magical power, so I don't know what that has to do with the links you provided.

Things have to be abstracted in video games? You don't say. You know, you can't make leather armor by banging a hammer against an anvil either, yet that is exactly what you do in Skyrim.
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:24 am

Things have to be abstracted in video games? You don't say. You know, you can't make leather armor by banging a hammer against an anvil either, yet that is exactly what you do in Skyrim.

But you do make it with leather, not with gold.
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carley moss
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:58 am

It did not coincide with their Dual-Casting system.
It did not coincide with their Perk system.

Could you get it to work with these? Yes, but my guess is they painted themselves into a corner and could not easily do this so Spell Crafting was not implemented.

juzt double effects at double magicka. if spell has effects affected by perks, stuff happens to it. whats so hard about tht
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CxvIII
 
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