I really don't see how it makes me sound dumb, when 90% of the no-attributes criticism I see is that people don't get to have a numerical representation of something that they don't need a numerical representation of in the first place. And then the same people complain about "hand-holding" in the game.

I understand how the attribute/skill system of most RPGs works. And it's exactly the reason that I got into Morrowind. The Elder Scrolls series has always been about redefining the completely ridiculous D&D mechanic of arbitrary leveling.

jumping doesn't cost stamina because there's realistic jumping this time and realistically a hop here and there doesn't drain stamina...well maybe for you out of shape basemant dungeon dwellers but you're not the dovakin

Also regular attacks are alot slower now so it would be wrong to make them weak as well..it's called balance

nerevarine-

you really need to stop proclaiming INCORRECT meanings from the posts people make. it's getting ridiculous.

edit: i've warned you on the other thread.

There was nothing you could do to your character in those games that would make them unplayable. I have no idea what you think you meant by that comment.
Once again, your argument is incoherent. No one is asking for a numerical value to stamina. That's exactly what we have in Skyrim... a simple numerical value that represents your total stamina pool. What we all miss is an actual depth to character creation and development.

It's not just a numerical representation though. It's a way of defining characters to make them unique.

Example:

In previous games, we had Strength and Endurance attributes. That means I could have a character who's physically very weak but has high stamina, or a character who's physically very strong, but tires quickly. This is no longer possible in Skyrim as Strength and Endurance have effectively been bundled together as Stamina.

I would prefer the three split bar system, where you have permanent "damage" that can be refilled with "tedious activities", and temporary "damage" that regenerates itself. For health, that would be like broken bones on the permanent side, and pain on the regenerative side. For stamina, that would be exhaustion on the permanent side, and fatigue on the regenerative side. For magicka, it think of Oblivions damage and drain effects.

Activities, character build and focus determines how they are used. And whenever both the permanent and temporary are used up (meet somewhere in the middle), the reserve is used up and cause a severe effect, like death or collapse (think Daggerfall, where you could die form numerous collapses).

Imagine the possibilities and character depth you could play for. Unfortunately I've only seen the three split bar system applied in one game before, but there it worked really well (one of them older UFO games).

I can build a two-hand-wielding, heavy-armor-wearing warrior who puts barely any points into stamina. Voila! Strong in a sprint, but suffers over long distances. Or I could play a character who dual-wields daggers and has a ton of points in stamina. Ta-da! A weak, but quick-hitting fighter who can string together multiple power attacks for more damage.

Edit: Also, to the other poster whose name I'm too apathetic to look up- I consider myself on warning. I've slapped myself and told myself that I'm a very bad boy and to never do whatever-it-is-you-like-to-think-I-did again.

i think it was in all the UFO games... at least aftermath>afterlight I may be wrong.. I also like that type of health system..

Dude, stamina in Oblivon was useless. Didnt effect the game that much.

trade off was that power attacks drain stamina A LOT

Only if you liked walking everywhere.

nerevarine-

i'm trying to heeeellp you, my friend. let me, help you.
just stop putting incorrect meanings to posts people make. take a minute to actually comprehend what they're saying before typing because you're using false premises to make you point.

self-slap accepted.

see, now that's another great idea that could actually advance gaming.

great idea that could add meaningful gameplay vs so-called 'streamlining' and dumbing-down.

Two-handed is a skill, not a physical attribute. You may deal more damage, but it doesn't make your character physically strong. If you avoid putting points into stamina, they're not going to be able to carry many items, are they? And what happens if they're in a dungeon and find themselves having to use a one-handed weapon instead of a two-handed one? A physically strong character should naturally be more effective with a melee weapon they have no skill with than a physically weak character.

Your attacks do hit for less when your out of stamina in Skyrim, and just with the addition of sprint it makes combat far more realistic. Stamina didn't even matter in oblivion tbh, you hit for less damage and that was it, you could still jump and run at the same speed as always. have you even thought about this post before you made it because there is a lot wrong that you claim is fact.

This is set up due to the fact you have an extreme advantage from a range.
This is why for Archery users, arrows are consumed perk attack.

This isn't unique to Skyrim but almost every RPG you will play. A melee character is in the fray and that is why they typically can take more damage and their attacks are "unlimited" and not tied to a pool.

you can't run anywhere though, good luck with the bears if you can't kill them. There is plenty of penalty for running out of stamina unless your character is straight up overpowered compared to what your fighting, and the punishment is a lot worse than it was in oblivion if you ran out..

Huh? You absolutely could not still run and jump after your stamina was used up. What the hell are you talking about?

the point you make, for me, isvery obvious and true. but, it just seems some don't think attributes should/can influence character builds. i guess, that perks and skills and attributes can all be 'streamlined' into one another.

what can't be ignored, however, is that by definition and simple math: no attributes= less options. attributes can't be subtituted for by perks or increasing magic/health/stamina.

yes you could, I used to jump everywhere to level acrobatics, and running was only 1 speed in oblivion.

You know, I kind of miss the attributes system. The only thing I *don't* miss about attributes was that, in Morrowind and Oblivion, hp was not only attribute and level dependent, but depended on how early you increased endurance, which made it kind of seem like you were "forced" to train up endurance early, no matter what type of character you were trying to build (a mage, perhaps, doesn't need *as much* hp as a warrior, but you still want to end up with 150-200 hp, and you want hp to increase a little bit almost every level; in the MW/OB system, if you trained your mage primarily in mage skills early on, you'd be stuck with like 80 hp for a long time, meaning you would be quite vulnerable to spike damage - doesn't matter much how awesome your health potions are if an enemy one-hit kills you, and it would be quite a few levels before your magic shields and resistances were enough to make a difference (in my experience, if you don't have much hp, you'll need at least 50% resistance before you are mostly 'safe' from one-hit kills; it's faster to get to 120-130 hp than it is to get equivalent shield spells to allow you to survive at 80hp, and if you have those shield spells *and* 120 or 150hp, it's like having 200 or 250 hp).

So, from that standpoint, I don't miss attributes; but, a better designed attribute system would be nicer than no attribute system at all. I miss being able to carry 1200 weight-units (combining +str potions, feather potions, +str enchants, etc) of gear, or run 40mph.

Are you maybe confusing the behavior you got from a mod, compared to the "vanilla" Oblvion. I don't remember being unable to run or jump because of stamina. Just that damage would be lowered.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fatigue

(( Nowhere in there does it say Fatigue affects jump height or running speed, just that your fatigue may make you feint, which in over 450+ hrs of OB, never happend to me! ))

Yes attributes and skills should be different and attribute should effect things in a general way and skill should make you more proficient with a skill. Physica; attributes is how well suited your character is at the task they face or so on, its strange people do not know the difference of the two. I like Skyrims stamina system but I think things like agility and speed should have a direct effect on your stamina bar and stregth should also have an effect on how much stamina is used in a power strike.