I don't see why there is a need for Liches really. On race pick alone you get large bonuses to mage like attributes. Werewolf and Vampire are not strictly for warriors or thieves/assasins/"honest" knaves. A Warrior could seek to be a vampire for a variety of reasons just as a Thief Player or a Mage Player may go for werewolf for the physical attribute/desperation power it possibly affords. We still don't know what werewolf form gives a player stats wise or how it interacts with the player's base stats and skills other than spells and healing won't work. Don't forget how Bidderdoo Harpell nommed the neck of a Dark Elf Weapon's Master after he ran out of spells!

Any kind of buff to mages would makeThis thread full of generalialisation, warrior using a 2h weapon has no use from wolf form and a thief has no use from being a vampire etc, also there would have to be something VERY wrong with your character that he decided to become a lich.

Actually we do know all of the changes both werewolves and vampires have on your character and they fit nicely with the warrior and their/assassin archetypes. Of course you're free to choose whatever you want though. It's all good. I don't see what the harm in adding liches would be since you have the freedom to choose. Like being a warrior vampie or mage werewolf.


Werewolves claw attacks boost 2h skills and vampires give you tons of sneaking bonuses. And yes, I agree. you would have to have something wrong with you to become a lich. Or a werewolf, or a vampire. It's willingly dark and liches are especially evil in tone. Not everyone plays the same. I want an evil mage who's power hungry and sinister.

No, not really. A thief can still be a thief as a werewolf. They may not be able to sneak around and stuff while in beast form, but they can still sneak and steal just fine outside of beast form. And the beast form buffs would make a thief handle better for melee situations than without it (say as a last-ditch effort). And a mage can still be a mage as a vampire. He keeps all his magic, and can do most stuff as normal. The magicka drain isn't particularly an issue as long as he keeps fed, and the lack of magicka regen was actually a valid playstyle in Oblivion and Morrowind.

Can a warrior still be a warrior as a lich? No, as his body is weakened and would need to rely on magic. Can a thief still be a thief as a lich? No, because he's a rotting pile of flesh and bones, and can't really work very stealthily.

Everything except the stamina regen is how it worked by default in Morrowind, and stamina is not too important for mages. In Oblivion you didn't have health regen, and you could play without magicka regen using the Atronach sign. And you can still get the regen as a vampire in Skyrim by simply staying out of the sun. The drain penalties can be reduced by keeping fed, and can also be avoided by staying out of the sun.


Although werewolves and vampires are geared to warriors and thieves respectively, and would benefit their respective archetype most, they are still viable options for all character types (which is important since you're not restricted to the main archetypes). A form geared to mages would similarly need to be a viable option for all character types even if it would benefit mage-types most.

It's gonna be hard to steal [censored] if you have to keep asking people to enter their house =P. I kid. I kid.

Mages kinda make sense to go with Vampires... or is that just me?

unsatisfied fan is insatiable

This is from a PURE mage's perspective. Some people may not agree, but a pure mage doesn't have to include Illusion...

Sneak Aspect of Vampires

Weakness to Sunlight - Health, magicka and stamina do not recover while in sunlight and are reduced by 15 points (only when you are outside during the day). It promotes being in darkness
Champion of the Night - Illusion spells cast by your vampire are 25% more powerful. Even though it is magic, illusion is better used by stealth characters for obvious reasons
Night Stalker's Footsteps - Vampires are 25% harder to detect while sneaking. best used by stealth
Embrace of Shadows - Vampire becomes invisible, with improved vision for 180 seconds (can only be used once per day). best used by stealth
Resist Poison - Your vampiric blood gives you 100% resistance to poison. i may be pushing it, but wouldn't you think a person poisoning people wouldn't want to get poisoned him/herself?
Vampire Sight - Improve night vision for 60 seconds (can be used multiple times a day and be toggled on/off) a mage wouldn't care if hes giving off light. its best used by stealth

Mage Aspect of Vampires

Vampiric Drain - Absorb 3 points of health per second from target (novice destruction spell, costs x mana per second). yes, the only true aspect for a mage
Vampire's Servant - Reanimate a very powerful dead body to fight for you for 60 seconds (can only be used once per day) would be considered a mage aspect if it wasn't once per day. its more like a greater power


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Warrior Aspect of Werewolves

All of these are fairly obvious as to why mages won't benefit from this. They would be weak werewolves :/
Werewolf claws- increased attack with increased one-handed skill
Werewolf movement- melee attack speed increased and sprinting increased
Critical Charge- Can do a one-handed power attack while sprinting that does double critical damage

Mage Aspect of Werewolves

the fact that mages have an option to use melee not directly a benefit, but its all i could find and think of


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Vampires would only be the better choice because of the one novice spell, but its not worth it. They don't fit with either.

You created this theory in your own world.

Although i agree that we need a mage form to complete the triangle and liches would be nice but there not equal with vamps or werewolves because liches are strictly only useful to pure mages. i think there should be a third form that boosts magic but i dont think liches are the way to go.

Perhaps mages could become an atronarch. it would add +spell absorption bigger magicka pool and a 100% resistance to one element with a 50% weakness to the other two or something like that so the other classes still can gain some benefit from it.

Well if becoming a lich turns you into an undead mage character, one, why cant I have a doppelganger spell and two, If you can reverse the effects of vamirism after you turn undead why couldn't you do that with a lich. This is a magical world after all, anything can happen.

I approve of this idea and agree that mages should get something.

"Warrior need advantage badly!"

All in all, I think it would be cool for mages to get a transformation, but they do not need it due to all of the cool stuff they can do. Mages already come with options, warriors need options, and thieves get boned for their transformation under certain circumstances.

As many have pointed out, typically mages are the third supernatural being in your triangle. If you are looking for a duality in mages, I think you're on the right track, but perhaps Necromancy would be more viable than actually turning into a Lich.

I think necromancy offers a mage the same dualities as a Vampire or Werewolf, and I would bet that Necromancy is fully fleshed out in Skyrim. If they did not have Necromancy in mind, perhaps it is some sort of dragon-magic that uses magicka. I am sure there is a balance, lets play the game to find out what it is, yes?

My favorite choice is nagas. They can look really cool, and favor magic.

I like how all these people ask how people ask how are werewolf's for warriors? Where do u get it from .... join the fighters guild the companions were-wolfs are strength

And people say why are vampires mostly for thieving characters look where you normally get vampirism - The dark brotherhood yeah they are assassins but there still stealth like the thieves guild one kills and the other steals

What of the college of winterhold ? no one really knows what thats going to bring out? Its funny how 2 of the 4 normal join able guilds give some kind of ability to gain a transformation. Yes there difference in thieving and assassins but most rely on stealth the like vampires in the TES series they stealth in homes to feed when people sleep

Magic classes don't have a transformation that relies on magic . Even if the transformation gave you the ability to cast a few spells unique to the form it would be cool. there plenty of ways to expand mana and regen already. If the transformation gave spells then it could make more viable for the other classes that rely on strength and stealth

I agree with this.

Werewolf attacks train your one-handed skill. It's been confirmed that they always train one-handed regardless of which weapon you had equipped prior to transformation.

Indeed, very true.

I would love to see a quest chain that would lead a mage down the path of becoming a lich. That would be insanely cool. I was planning on being a Mage/Vampire anyway even though being a vampire doesn't help specifically with magic. I like playing magic users, and I like playing as a vampire, so I figure I'll like them combined. All in all though, I'd much rather go the lich route as a magic user.

Oops. I meant 1h.


I wouldn't say that. I just like the idea of it. Necromancy and liches are really interesting aspects of the TES universe that would be neat to explore.

Like I said before, I'd love to see some DLC that throws some extra magery our way like that. It'd be pretty neat.

I may be missing something, but atleast in MW, wasnt vampires extremely powerfull for pure mages aswell?

Again, vampires do not have the same bonuses as previous games.

I'd very much like the inclusion of a Lich form. Maybe some modder will put some effort into it. There were some decent lich mods for oblivion, but none of them really felt like they fit IMO.

Well we all know what that means. Time for a Lich mod!!

Mage = vampire. Bonus in illusion and destruction (in oblivion) and bonuses to willpower and intelligence all add to a mage. A vampire can be a warrior or a rogue too though.