Forgot I posted in here a month ago. So double post...kinda.

I would want to be able to draw / paint and play guitar. Or sitar. Yeah, sitar.


I don't disagree, but I think a lot of people (myself included) just don't have any artistic talent to begin with. I've drawn and doodled for years, and all I get are geometric shapes and stick figures. I don't think my skill level has improved. Ever. Similar to my complete lack of musical ability.

If I spent thousands of hours honing these things I might become competent, but probably wouldn't reach 'good' - so there's little use in putting in all that effort. It's best spent elsewhere.

I wanna learn how to learn....

If you can picture something in your mind, be that a painting or a song, then I think you have the potential talent within you.

I wish I could learn how to be an artist. All of them. Drawing, painting, musical composing, sculpting, story writing.

Anything that creates something.

Unfortunately I lack the key component in that. Creativity. I'm about as creative as a rock, and it's the one thing you can't teach or earn through any amount of hard work. Oh sure, I could learn to be a very proficient sketcher, and I already know I can play music just fine. Couldn't come up with an original character or string of notes to save my life though.

I cannot picture a song in my mind. I can picture visual things in my head, and can write them down quite well, at least in my opinion.

Trying to convert a mental image into a physical image is something completely different. It's not how my brain is setup to work. There's something inherent in doing so that my mind cannot grasp.

I'd wager that most painters don't have a lot of writing talent. And that most musicians can't draw very well. If your talent is weighted to one medium, why not stick to that and develop that as much as you can?

I wouldn't say no ability, I'd say no inclination. There's a big difference. Nobody has no ability. Of course, everyone's awful at first, but with practice, anyone can learn to be creative and draw well. I'm the living example: in the years I've drawn, I've gone from http://elstormo.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=144#/dld10q to http://elstormo.deviantart.com/art/En-Tessara-227074865?q=gallery%3Aelstormo%2F9008129&qo=4. And that's only in around 8 years. Imagine how awful I was when I started. Problem with most people when learning any artistic ability is that they usually try for a bit, then say, "bah, I have no talent for it", and give up, while not realizing the artists they want to be like are actually that good because they kept practicing even though they were awful. Of course, many people just see a gorgeous painting and fail to see the years and years of practice that went into it, and so they think, "I'll never be able to make stuff like that". Which is understandable, but nonsense.

Read what I said above. Talent is a small head start, nothing more.

It's easy for someone who has talent (and you do have talent) to say that it only takes hard work. It really isn't that easy at all. I can see pictures in my head, but I am completely unable to transfer that picture into one on paper. I took classes for years but I've never been able to improve. But with music, I've been able to pick it up easily and reading music is almost easier for me then reading words. I wouldn't say anyone could learn to do that the way I do just with hardwork, it's just my thing. Drawing? So not my thing.

Human nature.

I'd like to learn how to make a bow, personally. A friend is about to get into being a blacksmith as a hobby and I had tried several times when I was but a wee lad to make a bow and arrows. Sadly I didn't realize the actual time and effort that went into making one. It's more then just finding a somewhat curved stick in the forest and tying a string to it apparently

Oh, and another language. Anything but French basically.

Not everyone can learn to draw or paint or be creative or play an instrument or learn a language, etc..

That whole 'if you work hard enough you can achieve anything' is idealistic [censored]. Some people really are just better than others and you can't beat them no matter how hard you try.

Well, I disagree. Drawing and instrument playing and painting are skills. You can learn any skill with enough time.

Creativity on the other hand is a whole different animal. There's a difference between masterfully painting a still life from reference, and painting something from absolutely nothing,

Nicely said. I was an art student, and yes its as easy as just grabbing a pencil or brush and moving it about, actually alot of the people in my course did that and they called what they did art, but no its not as simple as that, it all depends on what you want to do, and as someone else said what medium or mediums you want to work in. I draw and ive had people say that leg isnt right, or the body isnt in proportion, i hand them a pencil and say ok heres some paper you do better, if you cant shut the hell up.

Carpentry and yes ive tried it, and i can turn wood into sawdust, but id love to be able to actually have the skill, mostly so i can fix so many things around the house.

Ever notice how people stop improving at things after awhile no matter how much they practice? For some people it just happens much, much earlier.

Mathematics. I can only do rudimentary arithmetic, hated math class with a passion even if you got the right answer you'd still get it marked wrong so I threw in the towel quite early in that department. Getting older it's not hard to admit a lot of the things I want to do would be much more efficient and easy to do with a better understanding of the subject.

Wait, wait... it's easy for me to say it takes hard work? I'd rather say it's easy to say it takes talent and use that as an excuse not to put in the hours!

Relying on talent is what's easy!

No I haven't. You know why? Because it doesn't happen. You could be stuck at things for a while, but that's what classes are for - to teach you new approaches. But there is no way you can stop improving if you practice, unless you do the same damn thing over and over.

Did you practice? Anyone can take classes, but to be honest, there's no point taking classes until you've reached a semi-capable level. Classes CANNOT teach you to have the mentality of an artist, all classes can do is show you how you can get better.


That whole 'I don't have talent so I can't ever achieve anything' is complacent 'censored'.

What are you basing this statement on? Some people have a love for their craft that sets them apart from those who wish they could do it and think that if they aren't the next Bob Ross after two weeks, it's not worth trying, that's true, but it has NOTHING to do with talent. Talent's a small head start. It's starting the game with 100gp extra to buy a Dented Iron Shield.

I get personally insulted whenever someone attributes my, or any other artist's, progress to talent. Do you think I just sat down and made the things I made today without years of practice? No, man, I made unsightly, god-awful CRAP when I started, but I loved what I did so much, and listened to the people who pointed out things I could better myself in, that I kept at it and got better. Where do you think I'd stand now if I'd just said, "Bah, I have no talent."?

Anyone who says art is all about talent is simply too lazy, or doesn't love his craft enough, to put in the work.

I agree with most of what you say, except this. Anyone has the right to critique, same way you have the right to ignore their criticism. The "I don't see you doing anything better yourself"-argument is irrelevant, and to be honest, if you want to be a good artist, you need to learn to accept and objectively consider criticism, even if it comes form people who are less experienced than you.

I'd like to learn how to get three more of these free learning things...

So no one ever reaches a peak in what they do? Well that is just wrong. Take pro gamers for example. Some of the SCII pro gamers practice 10+ hours a day against random opponents, against teammates, and against other pros. Yet, not everyone can be in Code S (the highest ranking). No matter how much they practice they can't break through a certain level. There is a point for everyone for every activity in which a person cannot improve any more, they just plateau or even start dropping.

Or if you take painting for example, not everyone can make a photorealistic painting. It doesn't take creativity, just look at a photo and paint. It's possible, I've seen it, yet not everyone can do it no matter how much time and effort they put into improving.

A person can not raise their IQ, they can only learn to use their innate IQ more effectively. The same can be said for talent. Talent is not just raw ability it is the raw capacity to learn. Talent is starting the game with 100gp and a +50% bonus of finding more gold. If you played World of Warcraft and did some raids then you'd surely realize, people never learn. I'm good at that game and I just think to myself "how can this person be soooooo bad?". I'd give them pointers, they'd play a lot, yet they'd still have no [censored] clue what they're doing. There's a reason why "don't stand in the fire" is a slogan in this game.

Given 8 years of practice do you think everyone would be at the same level as you? People have different degrees of talent. Most people can learn a skill but it doesn't mean they'll learn it to a useful level.

Because competitive gaming is the same thing as art except with controllers, right?


With enough practice, everyone can. Those who can't do it simply didn't practice enough.

No, not everyone can do it because they don't spend enough time and effort into improving. When did you ever meet someone who had spent "enough" time and effort into trying to paint realistically, but didn't manage it? Never, I wager. That's because the people who did put in enough effort are out there, doing it!

A person can raise his or her IQ, by practicing IQ-related tasks, but that's beside the point. Also beside the point, but worth stating, is that IQ is highly controversial and believed my many to be a bogus concept. And the same cannot be said for talent. The 'talent' one has can be practiced by doing talent-related tasks. It's how you turn a talent (no matter how small or large) into a skill.

I'd like to know what you're basing this armchair psychology on. Because I'm here saying that talent is just a small head start and I know many artists, most more accomplished than I am, agree with me. What personal experience do you have to offer to base your argument on?

Maybe your strange world-concepts stem from too much World of Warcraft.

It stands to logic that yes, they would.

Yes they will.

You never met a painter who tried and failed after years of practice because he would have given up and moved onto a different medium. People don't have infinite time to devote to learning a skill. If they don't progress at a reasonable rate, they move onto something different.

If it takes me 100yrs of practice to reach a certain level of painting expertise, and it takes someone else five years at the same level of practice, I'd say it has a little bit to do with innate ability.

Everyone can learn, but some learn faster, and better. Unless you're arguing that everyone is the same and learns at the same speed, which is nonsense.

And you're talking to other artists. Of course they think it's possible to draw well with practice - it's what they do. Now, ask them if they could compose a symphony. Or write a novel. That's an equal comparison.

Not true. Just no. Artistic talent is something you are born with. I have no artistic knowledge and despite a great time practicing my hands are too shaky and my patience too thin to draw anything. I can't play any instruments nor can I sing.

A certain Austrian-born dictator comes to mind.

So anyone can learn anything except for gaming because that is apparently the one exception?

So we can all be theoretical physicists? Cool! I guess those people who study every night yet still get bad grades and those who don't study at all and get excellent grades don't exist. Everyone who tries hard enough gets a 4.0!

I get it from the definition of talent which can be defined as 1) natural ability & 2) the capacity for success.

Yours seem to stem from wanting to validate all the hard work you've done practicing how to draw.

So, someone who has drawn for 8 years will always be on your level? Someone who has drawn for 2 years can never be better than you? Or, in fact, everyone learns at different paces. MAYBE everyone could get their drawing skill to your level but how long it takes is another question.

Maybe if they could live forever but that isn't the case.

Yes. . .they move onto other things. . .like trying to conquer Europe.

This girl was a better artist http://www.artakiane.com/ than I'll ever be.

I'm the same way. I can draw pretty well if I reference something I'm looking at, but once you ask me to draw something of my own I totally blank out.

It's not the skill I lack, it's the creativity to apply that skill.

Key word here: given up.

If, yes. But you're using a grotesque hyperbole.

Everyone can learn, but some learn faster, and better. Unless you're arguing that everyone is the same and learns at the same speed, which is nonsense.

They can't compose a symphony or write a novel because they never practiced it. If they'd started at the same age as they started doing art, then yes, they'd be able to compose a symphony or write a novel of equal artistic merit as their visual art.



Okay, saying, "No that's not true. It's not X, it's Y" doesn't give your argument much credibility. Do you have any knowledge in art, psychology or another relevant field to lend your argument some substance? And anecdotal 'evidence' such as that below does not count.

Your patience is too thin? Well I suppose you simply don't have a talent for patience? You can't do any of those things because you give up.


No. I said gaming is incomparable to art, first of all because one is competitive and the other is not. Obvious straw man is obvious.



No. Where have I said anything about theoretical physics? Heavy cerebral fields require a certain amount of mental power to be practiced successfully. But yes, in theory, anyone can be a theroretical physicist if he works hard enough. It certainly isn't up to the elusive thing called "talent".


It can also be defined as 'natural inclination' or 'the ease of learning'. It cannot be identified as the single factor which determines whether or not you can become proficient at something.

Is that so bad? Is it a bad thing that I want to make it clear that what little skill I have was not given to me, but developed through hard practice? I think it's far worse to discourage beginning artists by saying it's all about talent and they either have it all of have none.


Well, it's all hypothetical, but even if what you say is correct, then it simply confirms my argument: talent does not stop you from becoming accomplished. It might make you faster, maybe, but it will not stop you, and equally important, it will not magically grant you skill.

Sword fighting and rifle/sniper sharp shooting. Which I'll probably never get around to since I'd have no use for either in day to day life.

Small aircraft pilot's license would be awesome too, but it's pretty expensive to get one here...not to mention a plane.