You don't really stumble upon it though. You know what it's going to be, just not what it looks like (specifically, anyway). It doesn't encourage exploration as much as it encourages discovering pre-approved places. If you're walking straight down a path, and you see that there's a ruin to your left, you'd probably turn left because it showed up on your compass -- even if there's an amazing waterfall just ahead with a pot o' gold at the base. It would have been better if places didn't show up on your compass unless they were marked on your map first.


Why? Why shouldn't there be meaningful consequences? It detracts from character development and gameplay experience when Bethesda makes it so quests can't be failed (even if you don't intend on doing them) or certain NPC's can't be killed (Todd Howard: "No, you can't role-play a murder! You have to keep that person alive just incase you want to be a magician! -- but you can't be a good magician either because you spent too many perk points on becoming a murderer!").

It's pretty much Bethesda saying, "You're playing the game wrong." How can that be in an open-world RPG like Skyrim? It just doesn't make sense.


Also, there's the journal. I know that's a hot subject on these forums, and people certainly have mixed views on it.. but quests aren't nearly as meaningful when they're displayed as simple objectives on a list (and by simple, I mean simple -- most of them couldn't get any more vague or literal). Morrowind may not have had the best way of doing things (according to some people), but it was headed in the right direction. Oblivion basically fell of a cliff in that aspect, while Skyrim only succeeded in climbing 1/4 of the way back up. It's not an MMORPG. Objects don't need to be short and literal or vague. They should be full of detail (only the details you're given, mind you). Same goes for marked objectives. If someone wants you to go to dungeon x, but they don't specifically tell you where it is (or even that it's a dungeon), it shouldn't automatically appear on your map. The kind of depth and detail in the quest system has greatly diminished since Morrowind (the fetch this/kill that quests in Morrowind had a storyline and plot behind them half of the time -- but even when they didn't, they made since.. no newcomer to any guild or house is going to be sent on important missions at first, for instance).

They aren't in Skyrim either - Did you even play the questlines, or are you just repeating what others say?

Companions begin with a routine "Show us what you're made of" quest. Then you get a routine quest "Lets see how you do with a partner" - and THEN things go wrong by having the Companion's "Dark Secret" revealed too soon. Also, you handle yourself so admirably in that mission that it's apparent you're the hottest thing to enter Skyrim since Ysgramor.

The College of Winterhold starts with you having to demonstrate the Uselessness of Wards, and then you're forgotten and can't do anything because the [censored] ward will always fail before Tolfdir shuts up and actually casts the [censored] fireball at you, thus hitting you and breaking the quest. Or, you prove yourself the most awesome mage ever by actually managing to hold the ward up for that [censored] long (Seriously, Tolfdir needs to learn how to shut up), and you're still given the most menial job (Picking up trash, essentially) on an expedition that all Apprentices are invited along on. Once you find an artifact, the [censored] Psijiics step in and screw everything up because that's what elves do.

The Thieves Guild has natural progression, until you prove yourself to be the Hottest thing to enter Riften since the entire Supervolcano area first erupted.

The Dark Brotherhood has the Night Mother playing favorites, because you're the coolest thing to enter the sanctuary since Sithis.

Although I agree this "save the world" thing is going to far not just in Tes but in many other games, what would you want to do in Tes?
Fetch mead, play postman, milk you faction leader's cow,get arrown in the knee for not washing your dishes?
If you were put in place of someone who is actually simple farmer, you would get bored quickly, better kill the emperor and get arrow in the knee.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Morrowind, you are reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar with purpose to save the Morrowind from Dagoth Ur.
Seems like any other game in series.
I agree on lore and people in game though.

Something along the lines of what they did in Morrowind? The thrill of doing quests came from learning more about the lore or getting in with the characters you actually liked. People loved the Telvanni because they were the Telvanni. They certainly didn't need a massive ball of energy, Thalmor conspiracy, and Psijic intervention to do so.

In the main quest, you save the world and fight dragons. Why do you also need to be the center of attention in every faction?

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Morrowind, you are reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar with purpose to save the Morrowind from Dagoth Ur.
Seems like any other game in series.
I agree on lore and people in game though.

I liked the lack of "menial" tasks in Skyrim's factions. In fact, I consider the "Companions" to be the most well-done faction in the game that I've done, because of how it subverts "Rookie Muck-raking".

"Go get my Sword Sharpened" is responded with "You're a Companion, not a serving-boy. Nobody's your boss". And even at the end, you're merely an advisor, not leader, of the faction.

From a story/lore perspective, the College of Winterhold is also great, in the sense of "This is why you should send ALL Altmer Politicians to Wuuthrad, no exceptions." Of course the entire college gets screwed over during the course of its guild quest - It's what they do.

The Imperial Legion questline also offers justification of you being the center of attention - You're expected to take out an entire well-garrisoned fortress full of Bandits by yourself - you're not likely the type to be willing to join the rank+file, so you need to be awesome enough to be a one-man army.

Also, you're "The Hottest thing in Skyrim" even before you speak to any Faction leaders - they just don't know it at the time. All you do during the quest-lines is prove it.

In the Companions faction, there are plenty of members who aren't part of The Circle. The questline was designed so that you see Farkas transform, and because of that you're invited. Why? Why couldn't the questline revolve around mercenary work, helping a side during the civil war, protecting towns from bandit raids, etc.. and finding fragments of Wuuthrad? The Circle could still have existed, but should have occurred later on -- even during a Radiant quest. Or werewolves could simply have been added as creatures that roam Skyrim.

The College of Winterhold is a huge mess. You're not even there 24 hours before finding the Eye of Magnus. After that, [censored] hits the fact and you become ever-so-important and, eventually, Archmage. It was far too fast-paced, with important events occurring almost immediately after you join.

I haven't done the civil war questline, but I can already say I'd rather be sent on missions with other soldiers, or perhaps a special unit of battlemages (non-existent after Helgen).. Of course, if they know you're Dragonborn, some things are to be expected.

However, that doesn't mean you need to be the hero of every faction in the game.

Yea, hero who is treated like crap.

The College of Winterhold is a huge mess. You're not even there 24 hours before finding the Eye of Magnus. After that, [censored] hits the fact and you become ever-so-important and, eventually, Archmage. It was far too fast-paced, with important events occurring almost immediately after you join.

I haven't done the civil war questline, but I can already say I'd rather be sent on missions with other soldiers, or perhaps a special unit of battlemages (non-existent after Helgen).. Of course, if they know you're Dragonborn, some things are to be expected.

However, that doesn't mean you need to be the hero of every faction in the game.

Yeah, but that's the main quest. I don't like how, in Skyrim, you're the "hottest thing" ever (as Scow2 put it) in most of the faction questlines. As if saving people from Alduin just wasn't enough.

Because they want money to keep their game developing company afloat, so as to still produce half baked RPGs.

Many people are happy with the "half baked" RPGs they're making. And besides, I got my job to earn money, Beth's guys and gals do probably the same. I know that the best artosts have to die on poverty so that rich f*cks can trade their work for insane amounts of cash two hundred years later, but maybe those artist didn't like the outcome and would have liled to die at the age of 90 with 50 children from 5 different beautiful women/men. I like money, everybody does, so don't damn them to hell as log as they're not destroying lives or screw you ober really bad lile selling Daggerfall 1.1 every year.

The best thing about having menial tasks for quests is that they contrast greatly when you finally get to go do something epic, which ultimately provides more entertainment. That was the great thing ab out Morrowind's MQ. Menial beginnings contrasted in a most entertaining way with the epic endings.

I don't understand why it always has to be either or. Yes, Morrowind did its thing and it was rad. Then Oblivion did something else and it was pretty cool too. The thing is, they were already done. They don't need to be repeated. Morrowind is still there to be played and experienced, and just because there are people who'd rather play one over the other doesn't mean the other has failed.

Yeah it's cool to start out being told to kill rats then slowly moving up the ladder from there, but there's also something to be said for murdering a dragon and drinking its soul nectars within the first few hours of the game. It's Elder Scrolls 5. I want to see what new things Bethesda comes up with, not just wallow in what's familiar. I'd rather play a game that tried something different and only turned out ok than a game that's awesome because it's living in the memory of another awesome game that came before.