Why are so many things being cut?

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:57 pm

This is multiple times now that you've taken my comment about story and started arguing about irrelevant game mechanics. Yes, obviously some things need to remain similar mechanics wise when it comes to sequels. People would have been pissed if Portal 2 weren't a puzle game that used portals. Not only does Skyrim still keep the things that Elder Scrolls is most widely known for, making your entire point moot, but your argument doesn't even have anything to do what I was talking about.

The game is still about huge, open worlds that are full of things to explore and find. Characters still use an open skill system that allow you to play as whatever type of character you want to be and your characters' growth is still based on the use of your skills. The world is still bursting with lore and there are still a ton of books for you to read to your heart's content. If you're going to be one of those people who acts like the removal of attributes that 90% of the time were doing the exact same thing skills were also doing is somehow some monumental change that flips the entire series on its head then it's not worth having this discussion with you.

Again, because apparently people are having trouble understanding this, my post was in reply to people complaining about how different the character's relative place in the world was. Yes, the player in Morrowind was generally seen as a nobody while the player in Skyrim is practically a celebrity. My point was that those differences are what makes the story in each new Elder Scrolls games interesting, If the main character fits into X trope in one game then let's try not using that same trope in the next.
User avatar
Max Van Morrison
 
Posts: 3503
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:48 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:09 pm

While I agree with most of htis, theres one thing that stands far above the rest, that needs to be mentioned: They are cutting Creativity and Freeform.

For instance, they cut free form by putting in "execution" type moves, wanted or not. They cut it by imposing invisible walls where there quite clearly should not be. They cut it by allowing children into the game, basically creating invincible alarms. They cut it by forcing you into water and forcing you to not fight because you cant.


Creativity of course has been routinely battered. Like, how the only way they could apparently deal wiht paralyzing weapons in Oblivion was to not allow you to make them. They reduce creativity by simply throwing their hands into the air and disabling anything that lets you do anything except go in a straight line and maybe hop over certain small fences, rather than let the players actually explore and find secondary ways.

But aside from player creativity, the truly sad development is DEVELOPER loss of creativity. Alright, we know this is a game and that dying is part of it..fair enough...Now why do you get to reload your save in Skyrim? In Oblivion? Its just a function that sits all outside of the normal ingame reality. In Morrowind, however...The nerevarine cant be killed. The prophecy says so.

That may not sound like much, but just as with another game (Planetside), they actually took the time and effort to develop a reason for this mechanic! Sure, its flimsy. Sure, it may not make any real sense and seems a tad slly..

....but at least they TRIED. And that made a lot of difference.
User avatar
Sarah Unwin
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:31 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am

This is multiple times now that you've taken my comment about story and started arguing about irrelevant game mechanics. Yes, obviously some things need to remain similar mechanics wise when it comes to sequels. People would have been pissed if Portal 2 weren't a puzle game that used portals. Not only does Skyrim still keep the things that Elder Scrolls is most widely known for, making your entire point moot, but your argument doesn't even have anything to do what I was talking about.

The game is still about huge, open worlds that are full of things to explore and find. Characters still use an open skill system that allow you to play as whatever type of character you want to be and your characters' growth is still based on the use of your skills. The world is still bursting with lore and there are still a ton of books for you to read to your heart's content. If you're going to be one of those people who acts like the removal of attributes that 90% of the time were doing the exact same thing skills were also doing is somehow some monumental change that flips the entire series on its head then it's not worth having this discussion with you.

Again, because apparently people are having trouble understanding this, my post was in reply to people complaining about how different the character's relative place in the world was. Yes, the player in Morrowind was generally seen as a nobody while the player in Skyrim is practically a celebrity. My point was that those differences are what makes the story in each new Elder Scrolls games interesting, If the main character fits into X trope in one game then let's try not using that same trope in the next.

1. Get over it.

2. There is little to find, and little to explore. Every dungeon type is virtually same regardless of what iteration of it you run into, and in the game world itself there is little to find that is remotely interesting for more than a moment where you go "Huh".

3. Attributes did not ever do the same thing that skills did. Ever.

4. Its not just attributes nor classes that are the problem.

5. There's a big difference in making your character vastly important and making him the only person in the entirety of the game world that does or even can do anything remotely interesting. Not to mention that being forced into being a total badass from the start for virtually every questline and truly the entire game really hardly makes for an interesting game.
User avatar
Alex [AK]
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:01 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 1:13 pm


While I agree with most of htis, theres one thing that stands far above the rest, that needs to be mentioned: They are cutting Creativity and Freeform.
Nonsense

For instance, they cut free form by putting in "execution" type moves, wanted or not. They cut it by imposing invisible walls where there quite clearly should not be. They cut it by allowing children into the game, basically creating invincible alarms. They cut it by forcing you into water and forcing you to not fight because you cant.
That's actually an improvement. Now, Slaughterfish have earned their reputation. It's certainly more believable than being a flying CameraSubmarine with a Sword.

Creativity of course has been routinely battered. Like, how the only way they could apparently deal wiht paralyzing weapons in Oblivion was to not allow you to make them. They reduce creativity by simply throwing their hands into the air and disabling anything that lets you do anything except go in a straight line and maybe hop over certain small fences, rather than let the players actually explore and find secondary ways.
Have you even played Skyrim or Oblivion? They've made a world you can actually explore, instead of one that lets you look around while walking through air.

But aside from player creativity, the truly sad development is DEVELOPER loss of creativity. Alright, we know this is a game and that dying is part of it..fair enough...Now why do you get to reload your save in Skyrim? In Oblivion? Its just a function that sits all outside of the normal ingame reality. In Morrowind, however...The nerevarine cant be killed. The prophecy says so.

That may not sound like much, but just as with another game (Planetside), they actually took the time and effort to develop a reason for this mechanic! Sure, its flimsy. Sure, it may not make any real sense and seems a tad slly..

....but at least they TRIED. And that made a lot of difference.
The Dragonborn is the Chosen of Akatosh. If he gets killed, Akatosh simply rewinds time. If anything, the Morrowind one doesn't make sense, because the Nereverine cannot be killed, but you aren't the Nereverine - You're just another pretender, unless you actually succeed in breaking the heart. And even then, you're still not the "Nereverine" - Azura's just a Daedric [censored], who does not have that power.
User avatar
Stace
 
Posts: 3455
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:52 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:19 pm

Bethesda definitely has a bad habit of taking stuff away that might cause problems rather than spending the necessary time to adjust them instead. To me, the absolute worst thing they've ever done that falls under this category is the introduction of unkillable NPCs. It's such a coddling tactic on their part, it's their way of making sure that the idiots who go around stabbing anything that moves can still finish the Main Quest. Why are they catering to such people? So what if they screw things up for themselves and have to start over from a previous save or something? Some people don't give a crap about not being able to do the Thieves Guild quests or save the world from Alduin. What about them huh?
User avatar
Eileen Müller
 
Posts: 3366
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:06 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:53 am

Bethesda definitely has a bad habit of taking stuff away that might cause problems rather than spending the necessary time to adjust them instead. To me, the absolute worst thing they've ever done that falls under this category is the introduction of unkillable NPCs. It's such a coddling tactic on their part, it's their way of making sure that the idiots who go around stabbing anything that moves can still finish the Main Quest. Why are they catering to such people? So what if they screw things up for themselves and have to start over from a previous save or something? Some people don't give a crap about not being able to do the Thieves Guild quests or save the world from Alduin. What about them huh?
Actually... I think it has more to do with the gameworld itself. They have a choice - Make High-Profile NPCs unkillable, or lock them away to the point of being inaccessible for those who DON'T want to be assassins. Also, unlike Morrowind, where nobody interacted with anyone else (You could kill Helseth and nobody would give a damn), in Skyrim, it would require WAY too much effort on the part of the developers to add the necessary consequences to the actions.
User avatar
Chris Jones
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 3:11 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:07 pm

Actually... I think it has more to do with the gameworld itself. They have a choice - Make High-Profile NPCs unkillable, or lock them away to the point of being inaccessible for those who DON'T want to be assassins.

If I'm not playing an assassin, then why does anyone need to be hidden from me? That doesn't make any sense.

Look, anyone who's going to kill an NPC who is either very clearly important, or might be important, deserves to pay the consequences of their actions, whatever those may be.

Also, unlike Morrowind, where nobody interacted with anyone else (You could kill Helseth and nobody would give a damn),

That was only because the game failed to give NPCs the appropriate reaction to Helseth's passing. Minus the Royal Guards that happen to be standing in the same room, that is.

in Skyrim, it would require WAY too much effort on the part of the developers to add the necessary consequences to the actions.

How so? If I were to kill Esbern, would it not mean I simply couldn't complete the Main Quest? I don't see any point in putting effort into designing the game to compensate for the player killing an Essential NPC. They should simply have a broken save file on their hands at that point.
User avatar
Nathan Maughan
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:24 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:37 am

If I'm not playing an assassin, then why does anyone need to be hidden from me? That doesn't make any sense.

Look, anyone who's going to kill an NPC who is either very clearly important, or might be important, deserves to pay the consequences of their actions, whatever those may be.
Because you have the option of playing an assassin, and having them not be locked away would make it far too easy for an "assassin" to just kill the person. And "locking them away" would be a hassle for non-assassin characters - And the game has no clue whether you're an "assassin" or not.

How so? If I were to kill Esbern, would it not mean I simply couldn't complete the Main Quest? I don't see any point in putting effort into designing the game to compensate for the player killing an Essential NPC. They should simply have a broken save file on their hands at that point.
The problem is that it breaks the world, not just the game. In Morrowind and Daggerfall, breaking the main quest simply meant the status quo remains. However, Skyrim and Oblivion do not have a maintainable Status Quo.
User avatar
Emma-Jane Merrin
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:52 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 2:07 pm

why does anyone need to be hidden from me? That doesn't make any sense.


You're not getting the point. The point here is not that we can kill an NPC, it's that the game can now kill an NPC. As soon as Radiant AI was introduced essential NPCs became a necessity. Otherwise the game itself would start killing off NPCs.
User avatar
Danny Blight
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:30 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:46 am

The problem is that it breaks the world, not just the game. In Morrowind and Daggerfall, breaking the main quest simply meant the status quo remains. However, Skyrim and Oblivion do not have a maintainable Status Quo.

All the more reason for the player to not slaughter NPCs with reckless abandon, despite having the ability to, don't you think?

Even when they're young, gamers aren't children that need to have plastic caps put over outlets so they don't stick keys in them. My outlook is: I'm going to give you ability to sneak into this mansion and slit this noble's throat while he's sleeping, but if you do it, there's a whole line of quests you won't be able to complete. Choice is yours.

Bethesda thinks the choice should not be yours.
User avatar
Chloe Yarnall
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:26 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:55 pm

3. Attributes did not ever do the same thing that skills did. Ever.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Attributes

Agility: Controls your chance to hit enemies, as well as to dodge their attacks. Also reduces your chance to get knocked down in combat.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Long_Blade

Increase:
Successful Attack: +1.0

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Heavy_Armor


Increase:
Hit By Opponent: +1.0


Endurance: Controls your starting and maximum Health, and your maximum Fatigue. Also slows down fatigue loss while running, and while fighting.

No point in having a stat that increases your health when you can just increase your health directly.

Luck: Helps everything you do in a small way.

Just boosts your effectiveness with other skills.

Personality: Controls how much people like you, and the prices you get at vendors.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mercantile

Increase:
Successful Bribe: +1.0 (see bugs)
Successful Bargain: +0.3


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Speechcraft

Increase:
Successful Persuasion: +1.0
Failed Persuasion: +0.0


Speed: Controls your rate of movement when walking, running, swimming, or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Levitate.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Acrobatics

Increase:
Fall: +3.0
Jump: +0.15


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Athletics

Increase:
1 second of Swimming: +0.03
1 second of Running: +0.02



The vast majority of every attributes' function was to either do something your skills were already trying to do, modify their ability to do something they already were doing, or to modify your starting and level up values for certain stats that we now increase directly anyway. The ones that didn't usually focused on increasing or reducing the chance of attacks connecting, which is no longer even relevant since all of that is manual. About the only one that wasn't made irrelevant by existing skills or the new mechanics was strength, and it was just rolled into the skills anyway because why the heck not.



1. Get over it.

Get over what? You're arguing things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about and only shows off your innability to follow a simple conversation. It's not worth my time when all of your comments are either off topic or factually wrong. If you're interested in having an actual conversation about the direction the story was taken, the pros and cons of that direction, and how it could be improved without just complaining about how you don't like it then I'd be glad to. Otherwise, have fun arguing with yourself.
User avatar
Kaylee Campbell
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:17 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:37 pm

The vast majority of every attributes' function was to either do something your skills were already trying to do, modify their ability to do something they already were doing, or to modify your starting and level up values for certain stats that we now increase directly anyway. The ones that didn't usually focused on increasing or reducing the chance of attacks connecting, which is no longer even relevant since all of that is manual. About the only one that wasn't made irrelevant by existing skills or the new mechanics was strength, and it was just rolled into the skills anyway because why the heck not.
Actually, Strength was made irrelevant/redundant by the new mechanics - Carry Weight is determined by Fatigue, and Damage is determined by Weapon SKill.
User avatar
noa zarfati
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:54 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 6:26 pm

Yeah, that's what I said. It was rolled into weapon skills :P

Although I did forget to mention the weight which, to be honest, I don't find particularly intuitive the way it's done in Skyrim.
User avatar
Emma Copeland
 
Posts: 3383
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:37 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Yeah, that's what I said. It was rolled into weapon skills :tongue:

Although I did forget to mention the weight which, to be honest, I don't find particularly intuitive the way it's done in Skyrim.
It's not really done well in any video game.
User avatar
RUby DIaz
 
Posts: 3383
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:18 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 12:07 pm

Well, what I meant is how increasing your Fatigue/stamina increases the amount you can carry. It's the only of the 3 stats that increases two values rather than one, and it's not immediately obvious that it does so or even why it would do so from an in character point of view. On the other hand, Strength -> carry more weight is a pretty obvious and straight forward logical connection.
User avatar
Emma Pennington
 
Posts: 3346
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:41 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 10:27 pm

The vast majority of every attributes' function was to either do something your skills were already trying to do, modify their ability to do something they already were doing, or to modify your starting and level up values for certain stats that we now increase directly anyway. The ones that didn't usually focused on increasing or reducing the chance of attacks connecting, which is no longer even relevant since all of that is manual. About the only one that wasn't made irrelevant by existing skills or the new mechanics was strength, and it was just rolled into the skills anyway because why the heck not.

Do try to actually understand what you read, because attributes and skills are clearly doing very different things. They're doing related things, but thats the point of attributes. Attributes and skills compliment each other. The real problem with attributes was their wasted potential in the past games. There was a step forward in the right direction with Fallout 3, but then the whole system was completely scrapped. Attributes should have a lot more influence on the game-world (and indeed, should be required in puzzles and other endeavors. Even Morrowind did this, if only in one dungeon) than just being something in the character development system.

I also point you to the part of my post you decided to ignore as you typed out your rant:

5. There's a big difference in making your character vastly important and making him the only person in the entirety of the game world that does or even can do anything remotely interesting. Not to mention that being forced into being a total badass from the start for virtually every questline and truly the entire game really hardly makes for an interesting game.
User avatar
Harry Leon
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:53 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:08 pm

I ignored it because there's nothing to discuss. You said you didn't find the direction they took interesting, what else is there to say?


And, yes, attributes were almost entirely doing the same things as skills in Morrowind. The ones that weren't were either modifying hit chance, which is no longer an issue, or indirectly increasing other stats, which Bethesda decided to just let players increase directly. They could have done different things if Bethesda had decided made them do so, but they didn't. So instead of completely reworking how attributes work so they actually served a unique mechanical purpose, they decided to just scrap them and tie the few unique things they did into skills.
User avatar
Vivien
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:47 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:08 pm

Bethesda definitely has a bad habit of taking stuff away that might cause problems rather than spending the necessary time to adjust them instead. To me, the absolute worst thing they've ever done that falls under this category is the introduction of unkillable NPCs. It's such a coddling tactic on their part, it's their way of making sure that the idiots who go around stabbing anything that moves can still finish the Main Quest. Why are they catering to such people? So what if they screw things up for themselves and have to start over from a previous save or something? Some people don't give a crap about not being able to do the Thieves Guild quests or save the world from Alduin. What about them huh?

This.
I mean, my Imperial Legion war hammer wielding dragonborn Orc is not a thief. in fact, for this character, thieves are dishonarable sneaking backstabbers that deserve bad deaths. And yet, i can not go into the ratway and exterminate them. Even on my mostly selfish/neutral nord character that joined the guild to access a fence, I wanted to stab maven Blackbriar in the face. onetime I did a quicksave before i talked to her for some quest, and when she gave me all this condescending disrespect i punched her in the face, and Fus Ro Dah'd her into the wall of some house we were standing by. "I know the dark brotherhood and own the thieves guild" that you #####. but then she just went to one knee, and even though I pummeled her enough to kill a dragon, she just stood up again.

And thats the real issue here- there was no alternative written into the game. I could erase the dark brotherhood from skyrim, but the most obnoxious condescending ##### in riften? Nope. Why not? Why couldnt I become the new benefactor of the guild. Even after going through the whole main quest of that guild, and making the guild thousands by cooking books, robbing noble homes, etc- i still have to listen to Maven call me stupid and allow her to manipulate the whole guild for her own ends. There should have been another route for the quests that did not involve her. There should be a way to clean up Riften if you wanted to. You should be able to destroy the whole lot of them, even if it means missing out on the guild quests, because that is what a true open game would allow. My orc would, thats how I would RP him. And there are numerous other situations like this in Skyrim. Morrowind got it right with the whole "this thread has been cut" or whatever the message was when you off'd a crucial character, at least i could still do it if I wanted to.

now, I dont want to be too down on the game, it has grabbed like 150 hours from me so far lol. Threads like this I think are more a comment on the direction of the franchise i think then a good vs bad review of said game.
User avatar
Project
 
Posts: 3490
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 7:58 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 12:18 pm

I wonder why these arguements go back in forth in really trivial ways and talk about really trivial things. Let's refer to the thread title for the main problem as of now. NO it is not about making Skyrim more like Morrowind and NO it is not about the story or the progresion. The thread is simply about the cutting of different aspects of the game and the over-simplification of skills. I don't care that they remove attributes and classes, I think there's a lot of room for improvement on the two and that they should be reevaluated, but the removal isn't a big deal. However, the TES series has been offering less and less content and customization as the games progressed. I don't give a damn if you're a die hard Skyrim fan or whatever, don't dare say it has more content and customization than Daggerfall or Morrowind and even Oblivion for that matter. At most it's neck and neck, but that's not the issue. It's a reoccuring theme with Bethesda that they simply haven't been putting as much content into their game.

I for one care about how long I can sit down and play a game for, not how nice it looks while I do it, though that is good too. So anyone have any thoughts on WHY they are cutting things and any suggestions as to what they SHOULD be doing? Pease be reasonable with it, set your bias aside, I personally like Morrowind but Morrowind is also part of the dumbing down and cutting in that Daggerfall had more. So why do older generation games (That have good graphics for their times) have much more content rather than newer games (which also have good graphics for their time in the same way)?
User avatar
Chloe :)
 
Posts: 3386
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:00 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 5:01 pm

I ignored it because there's nothing to discuss. You said you didn't find the direction they took interesting, what else is there to say?


And, yes, attributes were almost entirely doing the same things as skills in Morrowind. The ones that weren't were either modifying hit chance, which is no longer an issue, or indirectly increasing other stats, which Bethesda decided to just let players increase directly. They could have done different things if Bethesda had decided made them do so, but they didn't. So instead of completely reworking how attributes work so they actually served a unique mechanical purpose, they decided to just scrap them and tie the few unique things they did into skills.

They had attributes and skills 95% right in Daggerfall. Attributes altered how fast you ran, how fast you could swing a sword, how much you could carry, how much magicka you had, and how people in general responded to your questions. Skills gave you chance to hit, both in weopons and magic, and even in the language skills. It made sense. You might be a hulking brute highly skilled with an ax. but given just a small Steel dagger, you fought like an ameteur, because you had no skill with it, no training in the techniques, no training in stance or form or timing of strikes. Same with magic skills. Same with language skills. it was a measure of knowledge that usually played out in the form of accuracy, or "the spell is ineffective" for magic or language skills.

When they reduced the skills, but much more so when they forced the player to earn attribute points based on skill progression they really started to mess it up. in daggerfall, you could level up by using destruction spells, and then put all attribute points into STR. or luck, or INT. In morrowind, if you swung swords you got STR points. Didnt matter if you thought your character would benefit more from speed, STr it is or waste the attribute bonuses. This was the begining of the redundancy the developers talked about- THEY MADE IT THAT WAY THEMSELVES!! Further reductions to the skills etc in Oblivion added to the problem. Then we just junked the whole system for Skyrim.

Certain things i am glad to see go, like item repair. While durability could have been used to differentiate the armor materials, like say making orcish more duarable then steel plate, I do not miss hauling around 25 lbs worth of stupid repair hammers. So in a sense the reductions they made in blacksmith skill were good. But a lot of changes they made to reduce "redundant skills" have gotten to the point of over simplified game play.
User avatar
Milad Hajipour
 
Posts: 3482
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:01 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 9:06 am

*snip*

Daggerfall is the one "main" Elder Scrolls game that I don't have experience with, so attributes and skills having their own unique purposes then could very well be true.
User avatar
Jade MacSpade
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:53 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Morrowind got it right with the whole "this thread has been cut" or whatever the message was when you off'd a crucial character, at least i could still do it if I wanted to.

It was so perfect that way, because that message got the point across very clearly, and would register with someone who'd simply made a mistake, but could be ignored if the player just wanted to slaughter everyone with reckless abandon. Who's played Morrowind and not taken out an entire town at some point, even if they had no intention of keeping that save?

And making it so no matter what kind if person you play as, you're not allowed to keep yourself from being able to complete every quest in the game is just stupid. It's treating the player like a baby that doesn't know what it's doing.


So why do older generation games (That have good graphics for their times) have much more content rather than newer games (which also have good graphics for their time in the same way)?

Because playing video games used to be a fairly nerdy thing to do. There was a time where boozing, football-loving frat boys wouldn't be caught dead staying up all night playing video games. Now it's commonplace. And it has absolutely affected the way games are made. Granted, Bethesda's crowd isn't exactly the same as EA's, but they're heading in that direction, intentionally or not.

The cost of business is also a factor, but really, I don't consider that a very good excuse. Summerset Isle looks to be about the same size as Vvardenfell, and so going there next would definitely allow for increased content, because compared to Skyrim (and especially Cyrodiil), the province is pretty small.
User avatar
vanuza
 
Posts: 3522
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:14 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:28 pm

Because playing video games used to be a fairly nerdy thing to do. There was a time where boozing, football-loving frat boys wouldn't be caught dead staying up all night playing video games. Now it's commonplace. And it has absolutely affected the way games are made. Granted, Bethesda's crowd isn't exactly the same as EA's, but they're heading in that direction, intentionally or not.

The cost of business is also a factor, but really, I don't consider that a very good excuse. Summerset Isle looks to be about the same size as Vvardenfell, and so going there next would definitely allow for increased content, because compared to Skyrim (and especially Cyrodiil), the province is pretty small.

The simple reality is that the relative cost (both monetarily and time wise) of making a game has gone up drastically. Someone else on this forums linked this article at one point which goes into some reasons pretty well, discussing the difference between developing content for the original Deus Ex andDeus Ex: Human Revolution:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/9331-The-Big-Cost-of-Small-Places

I've often used this space to complain that advancing graphics technology has made our games smaller and more linear, but I've never gone into detail as to why. Someone recently asked me why it's so much more expensive to just add a few more levels to a first-person shooter type game. I mean, the engine is finished and you've already made all the bad guys, so why not just make a few more rooms with more guys?

It's a reasonable question. Let's look at this by comparing the recent Deus Ex: Human Revolution to the original Deus Ex. These two titles are in the same series, same genre, have similar gameplay, but have vastly different size and scope because of the technology that was used to make them. The original is many times larger than the Deus Ex: New Hotness, but the latter game took many times longer to make.

Let's look at the work that goes into making one "room" worth of gameplay. (Not necessarily a room per se, but any space where you enter, have some combat gameplay of some sort, and leave again.) Note that I didn't work on either game, and am basing all of this on generalized knowledge of graphics engines and art pipelines.

Making the space
If you look at the original, you'll see that rooms are often very square, as if they were made from elongated cubes. This is because they were made from elongated cubes. A cube room was fine in the year 2000, but would look ugly and primitive in today's world of more realistic graphics technology. In the real world, rooms have baseboards that stick out from the wall. Likewise for doorways, which have frames and thresholds. Windows used to be a simple cube hole in a wall with a flat "pane of glass" texture in the hole, but now windows need frames and sills. If there are support pillars in the room, these need to be rounded off and have additional detail around the base.
All of this sounds like really trivial stuff, and it is. It's not a tough job from a 3D modeling standpoint, but we're talking about a job that used to take one minute and now takes an hour.

Filling the space

We need furniture, and we need more of it. (Furniture means anything to fill the space - tables, vending machines, cars, metal detector gates, etc.) In the old days it was acceptable to have large empty rooms. (In Deus Ex, the dive bar in Hell's Kitchen was a great example of this. The open space in the middle of the room was big enough to set up a game of deck hockey.) Now those void spaces look odd, and we need to fill them with all the little bits of detail that people expect to see in a real setting.

This furniture takes time to make. It's no longer acceptable to have just one or two couches for the whole world. Now interior spaces have intentional decor, and the couch in the slums needs to be different than the couch in the CEO's office, which needs to be different from the couch in the waiting room. Furniture is no longer Minecraft-styled cubist stuff. It needs to look like the real thing, and that takes longer for the same reason that a Norman Rockwell painting takes longer than a Charles Schultz doodle.

Populating the space

In Deus Ex, the minor NPC's just had faces drawn onto the front of their heads. They stood still in a single pose and their voices floated from their motionless heads like they were all master ventriloquists. The more detailed NPC's had simple puppet mouths with moving lips in front of clenched teeth. That was fine at the time. Heck, we were delighted to even have non-combat characters in those days. But if you try this with a modern, near-photorealistic character it will look very creepy. If characters speak without moving their lips, it will look like a bug. So you need to add lip syncing for every line of dialog. Every hobo, every bank teller, every scientist, every businessman that blurts out a single line of dialog now needs to have a fully articulated mouth with all the moving parts, and with animations to accompany every sentence.

Also, these people need little cues for how to move. People who have played Oblivion can tell you how unsettling it is to have a realistic human-ish character emote lines of dialog while standing at attention and staring dead-eyed into space. They need to lean or slouch or fidget in place, and their eyes and head need to move around as they speak.
Worse, people now have a much lower tolerance for re-used character models. Playing Deus Ex: Attack of the Clones was fine in 2000, but if you have a section of the city populated entirely by copies of the same two hobos then players will complain about how cheap it is.

Pathing the space

In the old days, the level designer just dropped path markers around the level to show the bad guys where they could go. When a fight started, the bad guys would follow this trail of invisible breadcrumbs to the player. Now it's much more complicated. Bad guys need to understand where cover is, what objects can be vaulted over, and where the destructible objects are. They need to understand vantage points. (Shooting at the player from the upper catwalk is better than running downstairs to play peek-a-boo over the bank of computer consoles.) The AI needs clues as to which cover nodes point in which direction, so that they don't take cover on the wrong side of an object or go into cover where they can't shoot at the player. AI has come a long way in the last ten years, but it hasn't come so far that the enemies can figure this stuff out for themselves. The level designer must set all of this up.

Scripting the space

In the really old days back when Doom and Quake roamed the earth, elevators were nothing more than cubes that went up when stepped on, waited for a second or two, and then came back down. They were wonderfully easy to set up, and if the level designer was feeling really fancy they might throw a button in there.
Now we have elevators that are expected to behave like their real-world counterparts. Call buttons, moving doors, floor selection. There needs to be a bunch of checks and safeguards so that it works right when things go wrong. (What if the player stands in the door as it closes? What if an NPC is trying to reach the player on the elevator? What if the player selects a floor and then jumps off the elevator again?) Plus, it's more or less expected that videogame elevators should have windows with lights outside so the player can experience some sense of motion while in transit.

We need to set up all those hackable keypads and link them to whatever doors they open. We need to set the soda machine to dispense drinks, the toilet to flush, the lights to go on and off, the phones to play messages, the computers to display things or respond to player input, metal detectors to beep, televisions to change stations or turn off, the fountain in the lobby to have flowing water, and all of the other details that make these modern worlds feel so much more alive.
All of this takes programming / scripting to make it work right. Every level becomes a little game world in its own right, with unique code and interactions that usually can't be reused elsewhere.

The cost of space

Every step towards photo-realism brings with it a cost in fidelity. It's fine if the people of Hyrule don't blink, or if Mario doesn't get dirty during his adventure, or if Jade of Beyond Good & Evil doesn't see a shimmering reflection of herself in a small puddle. But in a world shooting for gritty realism, increasingly extreme steps need to be taken to keep the visuals from plunging into the uncanny valley.

Looking over this list, we're talking about things that are a ten or even twenty-fold increase in work. It's more than ten times the effort to create the same "one room" of playable game area that the player will inhabit for about a minute. This should explain why today it costs five times as much to make a game that's one-fourth the size.

This is a big part of why I'm really glad that this console generation is lasting so long. Sure, it's possible right now for Microsoft or Sony to roll out a console that's far more powerful than what we're used to, but I don't think most developers can afford to make games at the next graphical level. Heck, most of them can barely afford the one we're on now.
User avatar
Nichola Haynes
 
Posts: 3457
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:54 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 10:01 am

Although I agree this "save the world" thing is going to far not just in Tes but in many other games, what would you want to do in Tes?
Fetch mead, play postman, milk you faction leader's cow,get arrown in the knee for not washing your dishes?
If you were put in place of someone who is actually simple farmer, you would get bored quickly, better kill the emperor and get arrow in the knee.

I disagree. The guilds are usatisfying to me because the lines don't make you do anything to prove yourself remarkable before they declare you worthy to do the interesting stuff.

I'll just take the Companions. You literally just escaped from beheading. You join the Companions for a bit of coin. You literally do 2 missions for them (I'm including the dagger battle as a quest) and they let you in on their deepest darkest secrets? Really? It's like you work for Enron and they teach you how to cook the books in the first week. Not very realistic, and it makes them look [censored]. Being a warewolf should be a very well kept secret, and you should logically have to have proven yourself to be extremely loyal to have them even consider telling you about the gift let alone offering to give it to you. Add to that the fact that for most guilds unless you purposely avoid doing the guildline quests, you'll do fewer then 10 quests, and you feel like the only reason that you're the hottest thing in the guild is because your guldmates are stupid. That's just how it comes off -- you will overcome Skyrim because Nords are dumb. Why do I want to help a "famous band of warrior heros" that can't seem to get their act together?
User avatar
kennedy
 
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:53 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 3:03 pm

Alright, we know this is a game and that dying is part of it..fair enough...Now why do you get to reload your save in Skyrim? In Oblivion? Its just a function that sits all outside of the normal ingame reality. In Morrowind, however...The nerevarine cant be killed. The prophecy says so. That may not sound like much, but just as with another game (Planetside), they actually took the time and effort to develop a reason for this mechanic! Sure, its flimsy. Sure, it may not make any real sense and seems a tad slly.. ....but at least they TRIED. And that made a lot of difference.

Eh? Now I haven't played a lot of Morrowind, but I'm pretty sure I have died in it (just like in Oblivion) and I'm pretty sure the saves list popped up (just like in Oblivion) and that I had to reload an old save (just like in Oblivion). You're talking like it's Prince of Persia or something.
User avatar
AnDres MeZa
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:39 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion