We need armor skills, including bringing unarmored back. someone skilled in this type of armor, doesnt necessarily mean that they're also skilled in that type of armor.

i like this idea and if the armour was to heavy for you if you have low athletics for example you could only run very slowly but you would not take much damage

I agree that a combination of fatigue/stamina, speed, noise, spell effectiveness, etc. are all reasons enough for different character types to use different armors. Personally, I would favor a single armor skill.

Nobody is talking about taking them out, but include them in a single skill called "armor", with different branches for each kind. Maybe it would be good if the skill was called something as "Protection" and it included a branch for Unarmored.

No, we need different armor skills, for different armor types. Basically the way it is, or was.

The problem I see with it is that, if each skill has more or less the same number or perks... we would have about 14 perks for each armor skill. Is that really needed?

First - this is a valid point.

It struck me reading this - somebody (and I wish I could remember who, since I thought it was a brilliant idea) suggested essentially an internalized "skill" for each individual weapon. Not just for overall types, but each one - each size, each material, everything. If a weapon is AT ALL different from the one you were used to using - even if it's different only by material and design - is going to have different weight distribution, different balance, different feel. So it makes sense that there should be something of a "learning curve" for every weapon - that the first time you pick up something new, again, no matter what it is, it's going to take a bit to adapt to it. If it's the same basic type of weapon that you're already used to, then the learning curve would be small and relatively easy, but it should be there, and the more different a weapon is from what you're used to, the steeper the curve should be. This is a thing that could be, and arguably should be, applied to armor as well. Yes - there are logically differences between how you "use" heavy armor and how you "use" light armor, and the game should account for those. But I still think it doesn't make sense to have them be completely different skills. With layers of skills - an overall "armor" skill and then a separate, internalized "skill" progression not only for each individual overall type, but for each individual piece, if even just to mimic the fact that you have to get used to small changes in weight and weight distribution and strong and weak points, that could be dealt with, potentially quite well and about as realistically as possible.



The real problem there is that skills are made subservient to the perks and leveling system. Skills are fundamental - perks and leveling are imposed and artificial. Perks and leveling should be adapted to the natural progress of skills - not the other way around.

Sure. Lore wise wearing different armor types does take differing skill. Read How Orsinium Passed to Orcs, or the Armorer's Challenge

I never said anything about removing armor types. The three skills (or two in Oblivion) could easily be merged into one skill, while still keeping a huge variety in armor types with their own strengths and weaknesses.

ONE armor skill which governs the use of ALL armor types.

But that would just be one layer of the cake.

Then you would have the armor TYPE you actually wear.
Light Armor (leather, fur, padded cloth and such) would offer some protection, and is lightweight, which lets you move fairly unencumbered.
As such, it would still be ideal for sneaky types and such. But it would be governed by an Armor Skill.

Medium Armor (boiled leather, chainmail, scalemail etc) offers more protection, but weights more, slowing you down more notably, and
drains your stamina quicker. Still governed by the same Armor Skill as Light Armor.

Heavy Armor (platemail, daedric, dwemer etc) offers superior protection, but weights considerably more than medium, slowing you down much more
and draining stamina much quicker. Still governed by... you guessed it... the same Armor Skill as Medium and Light.


Even though there would be only ONE skill to govern the armor styles, the styles themselves would still be present, as would the playstyles.

Just because the Armor Skill would allow your thief to wear Daedric, doesn't mean it would be a good idea to do so, since it would slow you down,
give you a penalty to your sneak skills and so on.

Do people understand this argument?


And as some have said, there most likely would be perks to increase your... familiarity with a certain armor style.
Much as One-Handed has sword/axe/mace perks. (Where are the dagger perks, then?!)


I have to say I'm surprised at how many agree with my view on this! Didn't think it would be so widely shared! :celebration:

I would like an armored skill, and an unarmored skill... It would make way more sense as apposed to the 3 skills for armor.
Unarmored characters would have no experience in fighting with heavy armor, they wouldn't be used to moving around with bulky armor; making them less effective in combat. Armored characters who try fighting unarmored, would not be used to having to dodge and block the hits as often, resulting in a reckless fighting style, probably getting them killed faster...

personally i believe there should be 2 armor skills. armor and unarmored.

the armor perk tree should have perks that make you more resiliant with different armor classes (light or heavy, akin to oblivion with the same armor types under the respectable catagory), have less of a speed penalty, and take less armor damage on hits.

the unarmored perk tree should have perks that make you naturally resiliant to physical damage taken from weapons, resist magical attacks, and maybe have abilities like the atronach birth sign where you can regenerate magicka based off a percentage of magical damage taken.

just some ideas.

But whats the point in wasting dev time to just reorganize the skills when there's no reason to? That's redundancy.

Your reasoning is backwards. Armor does not define how you fight but your fighting style defines what armor you wear. You aren't "proficient" with a certain type of armor, it will provide protection, but it's drawbacks may or may not be important, depending on the way you play. Armor is a consequence, not a cause, which is why I think it has no place as a skill. Perks might work though.

In ES it does. Read the books I linked to. Armor can and does define how you fight.

I think the idea of fighting unarmored but still getting a bonus as if you are wearing an armor is silly. What would be the point in spending your hard-earned septims on armor in the first place, if you can simply go out in your birthday-suit, get carved up, and somehow have your skin harden to metallic levels from the experience?

I actually prefer how it was in Oblivion in that case, with no skill for fighting unarmored. If you get stabbed, the steel enters your body no matter HOW much practice you had at fighting nvde. Fighting unarmored should be based on NOT getting hit!
Same goes for those who wear armor too, but I guess gameplay-wise, it would be more important for unarmored characters.
If you want to fight unarmored, there should be perks for it based around evasive moves.
Hated it in Morrowind when a naked character with high Unarmored skill would resist damage better than if he put a bloody steel armor on. Made sense much?

So your saying I have the same flexability... and reach? (see what I did there) When im wearing heavy armor as I would in light armor. INfact it does. Your stances change youre fighting style changes in general. I had a friend that used to do that whole medievil thing and dule and whatnot. He used light armor as opposed to heavy. He tried heavy and his fighting skill went down because of it. He was not used to wearing light. The other guy tried light armor. He was not used to fighting in that kind of armor. They both found each others armor type to be uncomfortable and thus could not focus as they should. realistc sense. Also in TES cannon this follows the same lines.

Unarmored did more than that,but its not about whats practical, its about who your build is. you spend those hard earned septims on armor, becasue your an armor wearing build, opposed to someone who doesnt wear armor.

Unarmored might be good for a theif or assasin. You dont need armor because you wont be fighting guys with massive armor. INstead you will be waiting for the person to go to sleep and then kill them then or sneak up on them. Unarmored gives you really good sneaking ability and increases your agility acrobatics and makes you run faster than normal... like you were on powerthirst.

I fall somewhere between the two views here. I think there should definitely be an "unarmored" skill, but it should really be a mostly separate thing from armored skill. There are certainly techniques to be learned to at least minimize damage received, and really that's all a "skill" is - something that can be learned. But the "skill" of fighting without armor only very vaguely corresponds with the "skill" of fighting with armor. They both would make use of learning how to turn one's body, shift one's balance, move one's arms, etc. - in such a way as to lessen damage, but that's where the comparison would end, I would think, since the bulk of the unarmored skill would be dodging strikes rather than receiving them. So while there would be some rough similarities, they'd ultimately be entirely different techniques, and thus different skills.

This is another thing though that I think could be dealt with with a more dynamic skill system. I would think the most logical way to set it up would be to have a minimal amount of gain in unarmored skill from gains in the overall armor skill - enough to represent simply learning how to react to swings and such, which would be an aspect of any armor skill - but have the bulk of the gains in unarmored skill discrete from the rest, to represent the entirely different techniques.

Evading, deflecting, or absorbing strikes, yep. That's what it should do. All Im seeing is reason to add back more skills, not take them away. the more, the merrier.

Indeed. I hate to compare Dragonage... But it had alot of skills you can invest points into same with morrowind. Some were redundant and not needed I think Beth is trying to get rid of the redundant skills. But More skills means you can make a more specific build. I used to always make a paladin. I might not be able to make him anymore.

Tank
heal
good vs undead/deamons

I still don't agree. It's still not enough to justify separate skills. It's more of a mental switch, of being aware. Not a skill to be trained.

Strip it down to its' core:

There you find YOU! You and your fighting style.

Put heavy armor on, and you may have to adapt your fighting style slightly. You are not used to the weight, and will not be as mobile. You may come to realise
you can rely on the armor to take certain hits, and after a while, you are also used to the weight, and can fight longer before you get tired.
After being used to heavy armor, try some medium or light armor on. It will feel like you wear nothing, after being used to heavy.
There is no skill to be learned, but you must be aware of the difference.
"Ah, now I wear less armor. I can't rely as much on my armor now, but must instead try to block and evade more. However, since this armor is so much
lighter, that won't be a problem."
Only a mental switch, and adapting your style. Not a brand new skill to be learned.

I think they could easily have only one armor skill, and instead use the perk trees to have heavy, medium (or something different), and light specializations. Thus, anyone with a high armor skill could wear any armor, but they would still do better in their specialization of choice.

Tell me this... did knights every switch armor types? no because they spent their entire life training in that armor type and thus did not want to be hinderd by a new type of armor. The mental thing is what makes it not possible for you to be proficient with that armor. You just cant go. Oh I feel fat today ill wear heavy armor. Or I feel like light armor today and be able to use it like what you are used to. also fighting styles do change from heavy to light armor. it may not be by much but it matter when its a real fight.

And that's where the discussion should end, really. That's it in a nutshell. Everybody wins.