Do you think dragons are, or were, real?

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 7:28 pm

I'm a big believer in Dragons existing in the past, though I have no belief that they exist now, mainly due to http://www.valserrie.com/vs%20A_DidDragonsixist.html article.

If anyone has the patience to read it, please do. It's freaking awesome. :happy:

Link don't work for me, but I find it appropriate that the site it does link me to is called host monster. :)
User avatar
rolanda h
 
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:09 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 6:27 am

How the hell do people manage to turn a Dragon thread into a "lets mock religion" thread? :stare:


And as to Dragons existing, we dont know everything about our planet, so who knows? :shrug:
User avatar
Lexy Dick
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:15 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 8:37 am

Link don't work for me, but I find it appropriate that the site it does link me to is called host monster. :smile:
Fixed ^_^
How the hell do people manage to turn a Dragon thread into a "lets mock religion" thread? :stare:
I mean not to mock religion, merely point out the obvious double standards.
User avatar
Daniel Holgate
 
Posts: 3538
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 1:02 am

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 8:05 pm

Link don't work for me, but I find it appropriate that the site it does link me to is called host monster. :smile:
here ya go :smile:

Spoiler

Did dragons ever exist on the Earth? If not, then why are there so many stories about them throughout ancient literature, even down to daily logs of huntsmen on hunting trips, etc. And why are there identical descriptions of them in different cultures around the world despite the fact they were so physically remote? And if they did exist, why do we deny them? What is it about them that makes it so impossible to believe they ever could have lived in the long history of the Earth? Let’s start there.

The Case Against Dragons
Exactly why is it we think dragons never actually existed in real life?
Well, to begin with, there are no skeletal remains of dragons that have been discovered. When you consider that we have the fossils and bones of many, many different types of dinosaurs from millions of years ago, it seems unlikely that an animal such as this would not have left behind some physical evidence somewhere and that it would have been found by now.

Next, breathing fire is universally claimed by the stories about dragons from all over. This seems impossible to us since there are no other animals that share this trait, and since it seems biologically impossible. It seems much more likely that this is some fabrication intended to frighten or impress people, rather than a true account of a bodily function of an actual live animal. The principle of Occam’s razor suggests the simplest answer is more likely the truth, and it is much simpler to think that people just invented this aspect for storytelling purposes. It adds drama and danger and risk, and therefore attributes glamour and virtue and heroism to those who conquer it.
Finally, flight itself seems awkward and unlikely for an animal of the size claimed for dragons of classical times. Aerodynamically speaking, in order for any object to fly, there must be sufficient lift to compensate for the weight of the object. Lift is generally created by two factors: 1) the size of the wings, and 2) the shape of the leading edge of the wings. And this only covers gliding through the air. It does not cover the needs for taking off from the ground in the first place. That presents a whole other set of problems. For that, you must be able to either flap the wings vigorously, or else achieve enough speed on the ground that the airflow under and over the wing’s surface will provide sufficient lift.

Small planes must achieve speeds over 100 miles per hour to lift off, and they are considerably lighter than a dragon would be. According to ancient accounts, the largest dragons were reportedly large enough to completely wrap themselves around a full-grown elephant. It seems unlikely that a 40 or 50 foot or longer lizard with wings stretched out, could run over 100 miles per hour to achieve the lift required for take-off. Can you imagine an elephant running that fast? The bulk and weight is far too much.

And an animal the size of a classical dragon would require wings so large that it couldn’t flap them. Imagine a flying lizard with a 80 foot wingspan! The musculature and skeletal structure required to support and maintain (let alone try to actually FLAP) wings of that size, would be impossible. The muscles would be so big and so heavy that they add too much weight, which in return would require yet bigger wings, which means MORE muscle and bone, which adds MORE weight, etc. Therefore, the muscles required to solve the problem, actually serve to exacerbate the problem further.

So there you have it. The main reasons we in the west generally don’t believe in dragons, is that:

1) There are none now, and there is no physical evidence remaining of any in the past
2) It seems impossible for an animal to breathe fire
3) Animals of the size claimed would simply be too big to fly

The prosecution rests. Well that’s it, then. Guilty as charged. Stamp the page, close the book. Bailiff, read the next case please. …..


Wait. Not so fast there, judge. The defense speaks...

What’s Wrong With That Picture?
If they were just an invented bit of fantasy, then why do they turn up in different cultures all over the ancient world, and with the same features and attributes? Why do all the pictures, paintings, carvings, embroideries, and descriptions match even though those cultures did not communicate at the time? And over such an extended period of time, from thousands of years ago, continuing right up until just a few hundred years ago. They have been cited and described in detail by people from New Zealand all the way to the Inuit (Eskimos) of northern Canada.

And why are these references not restricted to just stories? If they are merely fantasy, why do they not appear only in fantasy stories? Why do they appear in the logs and accounts of municipal townships dealing with a local problem, and in the logs of huntsmen. And they are noted in the accomplishments of fighters, strong men, and warriors of old, when their credentials were read at competitions. (as in: “Wang Cho has killed 1 lion, 4 bears, 1 tiger, 2 dragons, 8 wild boars, …”). Why are dragons included in the list of years on the Chinese calendar along with other normal animals? (The year of the Horse, year of the snake, year of the dragon, etc.). Why are there so many accounts in the literature of ancient times that merely state the facts of dealing with dragons as a matter of record?

And, by inverse logic, if the custom of ancient cultures is to include fantasy creatures in normal everyday documents, then why not other fantasy creatures such as flying horses, mermaids, satyrs, and leprechauns, etc. Why only dragons?

Also, dragons are even described in the Bible. That is, there are 34 references to “dragon” spread across 10 books in the King James version of the Bible. They were in the Ancient Hebrew Masoretic text, which is the original source document for the Old Testament of the Bible. The original Hebrew word for dragon is “tannin”, and that is seen in many places including the book of Job, one of the oldest books of the bible. The word was translated into "Behemoth" and "Leviathan", and then later, those words were again translated into elephant, hippo and alligator.

Marco Polo noted in his records of his trips to China that the royal family kept dragons for ceremonies.

How Could It Be Possible?
Years ago I read an article in a science magazine written by a researcher who was looking into the municipal records of a small village in ancient China, and he noted how there was casual mention of dragons quite often. He cited one case where an outlying village had been bothered by a bear, and so the leader of the main town determined that he would take out some hunters on a two week excursion to kill the bear and help that village. On the way out, about two miles down the road from the town, they were attacked by a dragon, who they then killed by a spear, and arrows. Since they were on their way out for a 2 week trip, they did not wish to carry the carcass all along the way with them, so they left it there and thought they would pick it up and carry it back to town on their way back. But by the time they came that way again, 2 weeks later, the dragon’s body had deteriorated too much already, so they resolved to leave it there. It became such a marker on the road that people used it to tell how far they were from town. Over the course of the next few months, it quickly dissolved until finally, within 2 years, the bones themselves had dissolved away to nothing so that it was barely a stain on the ground anymore. No skeleton remained.

How is that possible? And is that a clue?
The researcher decided to involve a couple other scientists from other disciplines. Biologists looked at the stories, and did some research and anolysis and determined that indeed, there are certain metabolic processes that could create acids that would dissolve the tissues like that even after death. Further, these acids would be produced along with certain gases. Specifically hydrogen and other gases that are lighter than air. This got them thinking.

One expert biologist in this field who has speculated on the subject of whether dragons were real is Dr. Peter Hogarth, Senior Biologist of the University of York, in the UK. He has written several books now on the subject. He may have even been one of the original biologists discussed in the article I read back in the 1980’s. He is considered the world’s foremost authority on the real-life possibility of dragons.

Dr. Hogarth and the other biologists ended up determining that an animal could conceivably have 4 stomachs like a cow, but generate gases in them that would create enough buoyancy to help lift the animal into the air, almost like a balloon. Some birds today have air sacs like that. This would allow the animal to have shorter, smaller wings since they didn’t have to work as hard to lift the entire weight of the animal. The wings would mostly be used to take off and maneuver then, which reduces the size necessary to within more reasonable limits.

Now, it just so happens that hydrogen, when mixed with platinum powder, and oxygen of the air, will ignite into flames at room temperature.
The thought was that when the creature needed to dive to attack, it would have to expel some of it’s gasses in order to reduce buoyancy. Expelling gasses would have meant igniting into flames from the mouth.

Why didn’t it burn itself? Well, flame resistant skin is not so rare, actually. Some animals are quite resistant to flame, radiation, etc. The so-called “super-rat” of South America and the Indian subcontinent became resistant to fire when they burned the sugar cane fields. They also became resistant to poisons, and virtually every method devised to kill them except hitting them with a club. So the resistance to heat and flame is certainly evolutionarily possible and even pre-existent in other species.
Finally, as it turns out, the same metabolism that would create hydrogen in internal sacs, which would also create fire when expelled and mixed with air, is also highly caustic and the natural acids would dissolve the body and skeleton quickly once the creature is dead. So the very thing that would allow it to fly and breathe fire, also served to eliminate the concrete skeletal evidence to today's scientists that it once lived.
Ah, the ironies of Mother Nature.

The defense rests.


Final Judgement?
Personally, given the information presented here, it's difficult to know whether they truly existed or not. What once seemed totally impossible, now seems at least scientifically possible. It is not logical to simply dismiss all the matching stories, accounts, logs, records, drawings, carvings, embroideries, and other renderings that occurred over thousands of years from the top of the world to the bottom. Across societies which were not aware of each other let alone in communication with each other. How likely is it that the accounts and pictures would be so exactly alike without communication between them, unless they had all seen the same thing?
Also, what is the point of listing creatures of fantasy in municipal records and logs, etc. if they did not exist and pose actual problems to be solved? Why go to that trouble? It would simply be illogical for accounts of dragons to exist anywhere but in stories if they were not real. And now we have a scientific explanation to support their possible existence. For my part, I am not comfortable enough to say they definitely existed, but I will allow that they were possible, and, given the widespread accounts over thousands of miles and thousands of years, I must admit that they probably did exist.

You will have to make up your own mind based on the information presented here.
In a 90-minute televised special called "Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real", hosted and narrated by Patrick Stewart, that was an entertaining, detailed and realistic study on the subject that took over 2 years to make, Dr. Hogarth explains in great detail about exactly how dragons could have existed and the exact nature of their metabolisms and their habits, and shapes, sizes, mobility, etc. Yet, in the end, he must still say that despite all the indicators, he cannot say for certain that dragons really existed. He has to protect his reputation as a scientist.

To hide part of your research conclusions in order to keep your reputation so you can keep funding your research: Ah, the ironies of the business of science.

You can read more about this subject and read an interview with Dr. Hogarth at Animal Planet's website: http://animal.discovery.com/convergence/dragons/show/show.html
Have fun!
User avatar
luke trodden
 
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:48 am

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:18 pm

Yes. Why else do you think humans survived ? Dinosaurs were wiped out, to make room for use, we are easier to farm for food. Look how overpopulated we are ?
User avatar
Rachel Cafferty
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:48 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:46 am

This and I am also unsure whether there would have been enough oxygen in the atmosphere anyway to power such flight. The energy required to get such a large mass off the ground would have been pretty large

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus
User avatar
Penny Flame
 
Posts: 3336
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:53 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 3:22 am

I can say with absolute certainty, beyond any reasonable doubt and with no possibility of being wrong or otherwise corrected by anyone past, living or future, that dragons (as in fire breathing flying reptiles) have never existed ever and the the myth has come about because people found dinosaur bones below the K–T boundary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K–T_boundary).

Anyone who disagrees is wrong.

YOU ARE WRONG!

/me puts fingers in ears and shout "nah nah nah. I can't hear you" over and over.
Actually, as a long time archaeolgy and paleontology buff ( since I was a kid) this is probably the best and most likely explanation. I can imagine what someone many hundreds of years ago might think should they have discovered a T-Rex skull. And yes, Pterosaurs did not really fly so much as glide, sometimes using thermal updrafts to keep themselves aloft longer, much like birds do today. As far as the firey breath goes, I don't know where that came from, but I do know that people, with a limited amount of evidence, like say a Dino's skeleton and nothing else, will often just pull stuff out of thin air just to make things more interesting.
Anyway, no there is NO physical evidence for dragons. Like real magic, lots of legends, but no evidence.
User avatar
zoe
 
Posts: 3298
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:09 pm

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 9:33 pm

There was a factual "based on a true story" movie about a knight and a dragon teaming up....Sean Connery did the voice of the dragon.

So, yes I believe there were dragons.
User avatar
Deon Knight
 
Posts: 3363
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:44 am

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:00 pm

Manmade WWII gliders weighed as much as three tons fully loaded.. and they flew fairly well... (Waco CG-4)

Hell, the Japanese even had a flying tank that weighed in at 3500kg.. and it flew without powered assist. (Maeda Ku-6)

Weight stops being a problem when you're speaking of gliding on thermals instead of serious flapping wings flight..

And these are flying animals how? To be honest, 3 tons or 3500 kgs would be light for a dragon. An Elephant can weigh up to 24,000 lbs. I don't think Dragons would be much lighter than that.

It is a skeletal problem. Bird Skeletons are lightweight on purpose, to make flying. The problem is that once you get past a certain size, a light weight skeleton is no longer strong enough to support the weight of the critter, so we need a heavy skeleton, and that requires more lift, meaning more wingspan, and more size, so heavier skeleton, which...

See where I'm going? It is inefficient.

There's nothing that close to a dragon biologically.
User avatar
Nana Samboy
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:29 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 9:52 am

Whoever dreamt them up must have a really good imagination. Considering the closest thing to a Dragon back whenever they were first created would have been like... a crocodile or even a bird... Nobody since has imagined up such a clear animal with so little to base that image from. I don't think,
User avatar
Marie Maillos
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:39 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 2:33 am

I don't think Dragons would be much lighter than that.
Just for the record.. Even if it's 'only' eight feet long, has scales, wings, flies and possibly breaths fire outta one of it's hypothesized stomachs, weighting in at maybe three hundred kilo's...

It's a frigging dragon!!!!

It is a skeletal problem. Bird Skeletons are lightweight on purpose, to make flying. The problem is that once you get past a certain size, a light weight skeleton is no longer strong enough to support the weight of the critter, so we need a heavy skeleton, and that requires more lift, meaning more wingspan, and more size, so heavier skeleton, which...
brings us back to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus, that proves it was possible

See where I'm going? It is inefficient.
That has never stopped mother nature before.. koala bears being a prime example of an inefficient life form.

Civil servants being the other prime example of an evolved, highly inefficient life form.

There's nothing that close to a dragon biologically.
Komodo dragons. -not all species are winged ya know :wink:

and again.., civil servants.

my ex comes to mind..

to name a few...
User avatar
Kevan Olson
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:09 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 10:47 am

Dragons are just a made up story to scare children.
User avatar
Jose ordaz
 
Posts: 3552
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:14 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 5:02 am

Dragons weren't, but Dragqueens were.
User avatar
Your Mum
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:23 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 12:06 am

Whoever dreamt them up must have a really good imagination. Considering the closest thing to a Dragon back whenever they were first created would have been like... a crocodile or even a bird... Nobody since has imagined up such a clear animal with so little to base that image from. I don't think,

I'd always figured they saw a half complete dinosaur skeleton and then filled in the gaps themselves, resulting in a dragon.
User avatar
sarah taylor
 
Posts: 3490
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:36 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 1:00 am

Dragons are just a made up story to scare children.

No.

That may have been a side effect of hearing about dragons, but what they did (in Western culture anyways) was symbolize greed, selfishness, destruction, and blood-thirst.
User avatar
Lexy Dick
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:15 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 4:02 am

I'd always figured they saw a half complete dinosaur skeleton and then filled in the gaps themselves, resulting in a dragon.

I suppose it's possible. Hard to imagine though since I believe dragons originated in Asia, and most dinosaur fossiles are from Africa/South America :\
User avatar
brenden casey
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:58 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 9:47 am

I suppose it's possible. Hard to imagine though since I believe dragons originated in Asia, and most dinosaur fossiles are from Africa/South America :\

Roman excursions into North Africa a possible reason?
User avatar
jenny goodwin
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:57 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 7:01 am

I don't think they were ever real, just other mythical creatures like giants, sprites, goblins, and all that. Probably a mixture of a real but non-dragon animal ending up being beefed up through retellings, tales in folklore, superstition and all that jazz.
I'm sure I remember reading that the old "here be dragons" on maps was really just used to show that no one really knew what was there yet and could be dangerous.
User avatar
Dorian Cozens
 
Posts: 3398
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 9:47 am

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 6:29 pm

brings us back to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus, that proves it was possible

How awesome and terrifying is that thing.
User avatar
alicia hillier
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:57 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 3:38 am

Just for the record.. Even if it's 'only' eight feet long, has scales, wings, flies and possibly breaths fire outta one of it's hypothesized stomachs, weighting in at maybe three hundred kilo's...

It's a frigging dragon!!!!

No, it is a flying lizard. Not a dragon at all. Pretty soon you're going to be claiming that any flying repitleish thing is a dragon. You can either argue for Dragons, or you can't. You can't argue for flying lizards.

brings us back to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus, that proves it was possible

Not really. Look how short that body is. Very little body mass, not dragon shaped at all. Sure, long wingspans are possible, if you make sacrafices elsewhere. A dragon doesn't.

That has never stopped mother nature before.. koala bears being a prime example of an inefficient life form.

Civil servants being the other prime example of an evolved, highly inefficient life form.

Not going to get into this, forum rules and all, but I respectfully disagree.

Komodo dragons. -not all species are winged ya know :wink:

and again.., civil servants.

my ex comes to mind..

to name a few...

So if I named my child 'Real Dragon' War would he be a dragon? That's the same relationship Komodos have to dragons.
User avatar
Josee Leach
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:50 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 2:42 am

No, it is a flying lizard. Not a dragon at all. Pretty soon you're going to be claiming that any flying repitleish thing is a dragon. You can either argue for Dragons, or you can't. You can't argue for flying lizards.
Hang on.. you can't say they don't exist and then dictate what is or isn't a proper dragon.. that's just unfair :(

from now on, we're not using your definition anymore..

so there.


nnnnuh. :meh:
User avatar
Christie Mitchell
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:44 pm

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 11:38 pm

Whoever dreamt them up must have a really good imagination. Considering the closest thing to a Dragon back whenever they were first created would have been like... a crocodile or even a bird... Nobody since has imagined up such a clear animal with so little to base that image from. I don't think,
I have to disagree. People have imagined up far more fanciful creatures, based on pretty much nothing at all, and proceeded to believe them real. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptids. Here's one of my http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Death_Worm.
brings us back to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus, that proves it was possible
All that really proves is that there was an animal far more designed for flight than almost any depiction of a dragon, far smaller and lighter than what was being talked about, and which is debated on whether it was even really capable of flight at all.
User avatar
Kayla Keizer
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:31 pm

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 12:54 am

No. But there are crab people.
User avatar
Louise Lowe
 
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:08 am

Post » Sun May 13, 2012 6:45 am

Also, I'll bet half the service men here on this board have shot dragons before..



I did, before moving up to toes.. but I didn't want to brag. :whistling:
User avatar
Mr. Ray
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:08 am

Post » Sat May 12, 2012 10:18 pm

Also, I'll bet half the service men here on this board have shot dragons before..
You mean those weird "Join The Army" commercials where they're depicted as knights fighting a dragon or sniping robots on Mars are real after all?
User avatar
patricia kris
 
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 am

PreviousNext

Return to Othor Games