Southern Hammerfell was a Warzone. Hammerfell was weakened the same way Skyrim is, because of a Civil War. Now that they are at peace, they have spent the last +20 years focusing on recovering. And Hammerfell was willing and able to continue fighting the Dominion. They're not the ones who decided to surrender. If they were extremely weakened, they would've chosen to accept the WGC.

Neither Khajiit nor Bosmer are known to have Mages, where as High-Rock has Mages and Battlemages. And just because they are under control of the Dominion doesn't mean they are willing to fight for it. In WWII, Germany didn't force Ukraine to help fight the Soviet Union, it didn't conscript nor force the army to help them. Germany did however gain +100,000 volunteers, not that it affected the outcome.

It doesn't matter either way because there's nothing stating the Stormcloaks have any such plans. They're not going to do something simply it seems logical from the big picture. And you also forget that the Imperials hate the Thalmor as much as the Nords and Redguards, perhaps even more. In fact, there's more mention of the Empire needing to reconcile with Hammerfell than anything suggesting the Stormcloaks are actually going to do it. Besides, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil have one thing in common: both were occupied by the Thalmor during the Great War and probably both want revenge. No matter how much the Redguards may hate the Empire, they'll hate the Thalmor more and I think they'd be eager to take revenge on them even if it means working with the Empire. Yes they would be willing to work with the Stormcloaks, but I'm seeing better odds of success if they work with more than one province.

No, evidence points towards Ulfric executing people. The Empire only re-established control later. Yes, executions did continue, but nothing actually suggests Ulfric didn't do most of it.

Yes, they do. And yes, Bosmer and Khajiit allies did fight for the Aldmeri.

Where did you learn this? The Thalmor are extremely xenophobic I would assume the majority of their armies would be Altmer.

Well lots of Stormcloak supporters say they are tired of war or tired of fighting the Empires wars
Either would suggest to me that Ulfric might not get a lot of support for a crusade against the Thalmor
Most Nords seem concerned with religious freedom and chucking the Empire out, that the Thalmor might be a threat to the very existence of humanity might be a little too theological for them
If Skyrim became independent I see it as xenophobic and isolationist

Right. If the Empire stays in power they'll be able to keep playing their style of game.
But all that namby-pamby James Bond crap goes right out the window if the Stormcloaks win , and Ulfric and his Band of Angry White Dudes lands on their shores with Axes in hand and hairs across [censored].

A majority of their armies are Altmer, but you trick an entire race into believing that you caused the return of their two most sacred entities(the Moons), and see if they dont fight for you. Or call on conscripts from the Era long relationship with Valenwood (where the Thalmor government originates). As to Bosmer and Khajiit mages, they've been throughout the games and the lore.

Bretons and Redguards have cannons though, so extended fighting in provinces like Hammerfell would be extremely costly since there would have to be constant naval support for resupply in the Iliac Bay regions. Conversely, Hammerfell's most prosperous and economic regions are in the North, middle an Southwest parts of Hammerfell, so their financially able to go the distance with the Aldmeri. Not to mention the natural defenses the lands hold. The Aldmeri named Hammerfell the Deathlands for this very reason. Aldmeri basically ran into something like North Vietnamese, meets mid 18th century England.

Hammerfell wasn't the province that waved the White Flag. And The Thalmor did not 'give back' cities. The Leigon kicked them out of Cyrodiil, or to be technical, killed them. Lord Naarifin and his army? All dead. Lady Aranayela's Army? All dead. The Aldmeri Armies were annihilated at Red Ring.

Which side do you support in the Civil War?

Depends on the RP. A lot of mine couldn't care less one way or the other.

The Stormcloaks have justified reasons to be frustrated and, in this case, rebel.

BUT, given the current situation, fighting against the Empire, is just what the Thalmor want.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER - Can't you see? The Thalmor are attempting to divide the powers so each are capable of conquering with not much effort.

Despite the Stormcloaks having valid reasons to fight, doing it while the Thalmor are on standby is just going to make matters worse.

No matter what side wins, the Thalmor will conquer both. Why? You said it yourself, they are Strategical Masters. Several battles in world history prove that numbers don't mean anything.

Divided, the Thalmor will get what they want.

Together, they can defeat the Thalmor.

The quote "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play.

The empire does not like the Thalmor as much as anyone else does. In the beginning, you can see General Tulius arguing with the Thalmor.

If both factions decide to destroy the group that made them start to fight in the first place, then most of their problems will be solved.


Considering the Thalmor defeated, negotiations between the Empire and the Stormcloaks would be unknown. But it's certain that the Empire will be much more willing to give in to the Stormcloaks if the knife of the Thalmor isn't at their throat.

Only Lord Naarifin's forces at the Imperial City were annihilated. The Thalmor still presumably held the southern cities of both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. Heck, it took the Redguards five years to drive the remaining Thalmor out. In some ways letting Hammerfell go when they rejected peace may not have been so terrible: the Thalmor failed to gain any territory, yet the Empire, which seems to now be the objective of the Thalmor, was able to begin recovering sooner.

Something that's also bugging me is that of the stuff that the Empire has done, they either had little other choice or they'd be condemned either way. They couldn't help Morrowind because there was a succession crisis at the time. If they punished those that sacked Orsinium they'd be condemned for killing their own people. If they tried to retake Black Marsh, they'd be derided for wasting lives on an otherwise unimportant and inhospitable province, assuming they succeeded at all. If they retook Morrowind later, the Dunmer would probably oppose it, and again the Empire would be condemned for it. If they sided with the Redguards, they may be able to drive the Thalmor out of Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, but it'd also mean that they'd have a longer way to go before they could recover enough to actually take the fight to them.

Being more proactive against the Aldmeri Dominion seemed like a good idea in hindsight, but being peaceful and unaggressive doesn't make one a terrible ruler. And few actually saw the threat of the Dominion before the Great War.

Except the stromcloaks would never ally wth hammerfel cuz they are racist, and never accept outside help, if you are not a nord, you are inferior to them.

In a lot of ways the Dominion is a sort of Mer Novus, novus ordo Imperium. Or the 'New', new Imperial Order. Which has what to do with anything I've said? I doubt a Nord would be able to even pilot a ship bigger than a longboat or frigate. Hammerfell has actual Ships of the Line, or at least they did some 200 years ago.

The only big plus I can see about the Stormcloaks is that they have women in their army. Heh

At least, more women.

Probably an unintended oversight for the Imperials on Bethesda's part, but it makes the Civil War kind of strange to me. It makes the Cloaks look even more just.. because they're just regular people, from different walks of life, trying to fight for their beliefs. The imperials aren't exactly bad, but they don't have that kind of allure and sense of justice at all.

And they would get leveled because they are all against magic.

Well, you have a very good arguement. Most people just go with "URRGGGGGG YOS SOPPSED 2 B NORDDDDSSSS U STUPIDSSSSSSSSSS"

You are the exception. However, quite a few Nord's have strong hatred towards ALL mer due to the night of tears. I've always been a Empire supporter, and I see that they are best option skyrim has. I've never really liked the Nord's, not a racist sense. They just don't interest me.

But as Ulfric uses the voice in the duel with the king, that just seems cowardly. Along with the fact he act's like a child during "Season Unending" set me towards not liking him.

And he think's HE can lock MY egg brothers and sisters out of Windhelm? OH BOY, SOMEONE IS GETTING THEIR SOUL TRAPPED.

But no, I would come up with a strong counter argument....

But I don't really want to right now.

Yes, Divide and Conquer, that method sure proved successful against Hammerfell, I don't see why the outcome for Skyrim would be different. If anything, The Thalmor are vulnerable attacking Skyrim. They face the threat of Hammerfell from the west and possibly Argonia from the east.

It svcks that Ulfric has so much to do with the Stormcloaks. I'd like to take the cause away from him. He's a PITA.

The average stormcloak sounds well meaning. Some of them just seem like young people fighting for a good cause.

I am expecting dwermer invasion just like oblivion crisis to wipe out all the other mer and the nords. You may laugh at this post, but remember they thought dragons were legend.
I wouldn't be surprised if they got those tools (sundering, keening ect forget the specific name) and dagoth ur stole them again since the tribunal are pretty much all dead now and deadric princes are known to bend the rules.

This post does make sense, even though it is a tad astounding the amount of research this guy has done

Bear in mind (someone said this already): The Thalmor are experts at Espionage and all that other James Bond [censored]. If it was a war with the *Empire* the Empire would suffer from internal conflicts. I would not be surprised if the Thalmor integrated themselves into the Imperial Infrastructure within a period of 25 years. The Imperial Government is divided enough as it is, a member of the Elder Council hired the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the Emperor.

Skyrim is Vichy France. If it secedes from the Empire, the Dominion will just swoop in and take it over, and if the Empire won't fight them now, they won't fight them then.

I don't believe that a Dwemer invasion would be likely. But, an invasion of Tamriel by Akavir and the Tsaesci, that's a whole different story. We're open to debate now but what happens is up to Bethesda. I have a feeling that the 'canon' ending will ultimatley be unaffected by whatever faction you help.

my 2-cents:

the stormcloaks are fine people fighting to protect their beliefs. they also have a good chance of being able to fight the thalmor. at the time the thalmor and the empire is weak (sevearly so) but if the thalmor are not destroyed very soon they will win the war, the emprie is not gathering their resorces or warriors or anything faster than the thalmor (which everyone seems to believe) and are only giving the thalmor a chance to gather strength for the next assault (which will finish the empire, easily) while keeping the emprie weak with constant assassination (legal and puplic assassination of supposed talos worshippers, evidence or no). the stormcloaks could easily win aganst the thalmor given that they would not surrender like milk-drinkers the first chance they get instead of pressing the advantage