I thought it was about time I threw my 2 cents into this discussion about the Great War, the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks etc. Most of the related threads that have been posted have only promoted quarrel and debate, I want to persuade you to believe in what I think.

-The Thalmor aren't that powerful. Infact they are just as weakened, if not more than the Empire.

The Summerset Isle is by no means a large province, infact it is one of the smaller ones. And the Aldmeri Dominion does not have much military support from Valenwood or Elsweyr. Nor do the Thalmor have an army THAT large, their victory throughout most of the Great War is credited to tactics and planning. Now, let's take a look at the Great War. The Great War began on the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171. The war was triggered when Titus Mede II rejected the Aldmeri Ultimatum that was presented to him; this Ultimatum, whose terms were very similar to that of the White-Gold Concordat (we'll get to that). I'm not going to go over the whole war, just the parts I want to use to make my point. If you would like to know more abou the Great War, read this - http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Great_War_(Book)

During the Great War, the main focus of the Aldmeri armies was Cyrodiil, although there was fighting in southern Hammerfell. Near the end of the war, the Dominion captred and sacked the Imperial city. This was followed by the Battle of Red Ring, in which the Leigons retook the city and annihilated (that means completely destroyed) the Aldmeri Armies occupying Cyrodiil. Afterward, Titus Mede II presented the Dominion with the White-Gold Concordat Treaty. Mede II had over estimated the Dominion, and ironically, the Dominion had done the same. If they were powerful enough, they would've proceeded to destroy the Empire, regardless of a treaty. Even though the treaty heavily favors the Dominion, it ultimately detains them from reaching their ultimate goal. The Thalmor also refer to the Great-War as "The first war with the empire" insinuating that they plan on starting another one eventually. If anything, the WGC is a convinience for both sides to rebuild their forces.

Terms of the White-Gold Concordat:

- The Redguard lands south of the Alik'r Desert are to be ceded to the Aldmeri Dominion (I believe it was about a third of Hammerfell).
-The disbandment of the Blades organization.
-The Banning of Talos' worship.
-The Thalmor are allowed free and unrestricted access throughout the Empire.

The Redguards were outraged at the Empire for paying the treaty with their hard-won lands and waged their own war against the Dominion. The Empire was forced to renounce Hammerfell as a province, and a war between the Dominion and Hammerfell would be waged on for five years. Now, keep in mind that during this time the Thalmor had no other pertaining Military threats, Hammerfell was their only target for their offensive military. The rest of the Thalmor's mer-power was directed toward defending borders and rooting out Talos heretics throughout the Empire. The war was fought to a stalemate and eventually the Dominion had to withdraw their forces from Hammerfell. What does that say? It says that the Dominion did not have enough resources to continue waging a small war against an "inferior" province that was not even united under the Empire. And now the Redguards harbor a cold hatred against the Empire for abandoning them and winning a war by themselves. One can argue that this is heavily credited to the Battle of Red Ring, but the point remains. What makes people think that Skyrim, home to the other group of strongest, fiercest warriors Tamriel has to offer, would be crushed by the Dominion without the Empire? The war with the Dominion in Hammerfell ended the civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears and the nation has been prospering ever since.

-Men breed much faster than Elves.

Several generations have passed sicne the Great War (30 years worth), and even though Elves live much longer than humans, they populate a lot slower.

-'People still worship Talos in secret. Banning his worship isn't a big deal.'

Well, I guess if you think that you're right. But then again, it depends on what you think a 'big deal' is. In my opinion, Thalmor Justiciars going to Talos shrines and slaughtering innocent people (sometimes not even Talos worshippers, just those who happened to be near the area), Nord families ratting eachother out, Thalmor imprisoning, torturing and evnetually killing 'alleged' Talos worshippers without any solid proof and the Empire not doing a damn thing is a pretty big deal.

-Ulfric Stormcloak and most Stormcloaks are not racist.

First off, there is not a single piece of solid evidence that you can present that states Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist, and I will refute the most popular arguments.

-The Conditions of the Gray Quarter in Windhelm and how they Dunmer and Argonians are treated.

Windhelm and the Gray Quater were offered as a safe haven to the refugees who fled from Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain. The conditions of the Gray-Quarter have always been crappy, even when Windhelm was under Imperial control. There a few reasons why Ulfric has not tried to improve the conditions. 1: He is waging a war, I would assume he has slighter bigger problems to worry about. 2: The Dark Elves have not bothered to help the Nords, they have only taken advantage of their hospitality. It is not impossible to be an Elf and have a good status in Windhelm. Niranye, who is a High-Elf and whom the Nords were probably even more suspicious of remarks, 'The Dark Elves are too proud and naive to gain the Nords' respect.' A Dark Elf, Brelyn Hlaalu, owns a farm near the city which is patrolled by Stormcloak soldiers. Guards often recommend you to visit Saadri's used wares to sell/purchase.

Maybe the Argonians are kept outside of Windhelm because they could not coexist with the Dunmer? Allowing them into the cities would probably cause riots seeing as how the Argonains are controlled by the Hist.

Nords in general are suspicous of outsiders, deeming them as 'Milk Drinkers' until they prove that they are honorable. But once they do, they will treat them as their own.

-Ulfric only wants to be High-King.

Wrong, If he did, I think he would've eagerly accepted the opportunity to crown himself High-King in a tryant-like fashion at the end of the Stormcloak questline. Instead, he declines, allowing Elisif to continue to rule Solitude and will wait for the Moot to rightfully name him High-King. Also, at the end of the questline, Ulfric mentions invading the Summertset Isles, this implies that the Stormcloaks are well and ready to both defend Skyrim and launch their own invasions.

-The Markarth Incident

I believe that the book is a propaganda piece for two reasons. It is a secondary source and it was written by an Imperial Scholar, not a Native Reachman or Nord. It is an attempt to cover the Empire's ass depicting them as "We couldn't do anything to take the Reach back and all we could do is let this monster Ulfric Stormcloak kill these people." There is no NPC that mentions Ulfric's 'atrocities.' Nords do not mention his 'atrocities,' they simply remark about how he used the Thu'um to defeat the Forsworn. Forsworn do not even mention his name. Braig, one of the few Forsworn who talk about the Markarth Incident and such talks about the cruelty that the Imperial-controlled city showed him. And the atrocities it committed, paticularly against his daughter. In 4E 201, his daughter would've been 23, meaning she was born in 4E 178, 2 years after the Markarth Incident when Ulfric was in prison and the city was under Imperial control.

-"SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS! RAWR!"

The motto "Skyrim is for the Nords" does not mean that Nords are superior and no other race should be allowed to live there. "Skyrim is for the Nords" means that True Nords should be in control of Skyrim and its future, not Eleves, Imperials, or Nords addicted to Imperial coin. As Ralof says "You don't have to be a Nord to fight for Skyrim's freedom." The Stormcloaks have no problem with a non-Nord helping their cause, as long as they share the same beliefs. In otherwords, hatred for the Thalmor and belief that Skyrim should be able to rule itself.

What I believe will happen is once Skyrim gains it's independance, it will create an alliance with Hammerfell (who will gladly accept) and possibly coerce High-rock into leaving the Empire. Then, with the Empire's help or not, these provinces will fight the weakened Dominion off of Tamriel and eventually siege Summerset.

Bump.

interesting.... However I would still support the empire. However right now I don't have the time to explain why since you put up a long argument supporting you're opinion.

There's no evidence that they'll ally with Hammerfell.

No evidence that they wouldn't either. But it would be logical, wouldn't it?

A few brief reasons?

Great post! I was doubting what to do with my current Nord character... I already finished the Stormcloaks questline before with another character, and now I really couldn't choose which side to pick. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim agitates me greatly, but earlier today I figured I should join the Imperials this time so I could at least do that questline as well. Then I visited Windhelm and heard Ulfric's speech, and then started doubting. This post convinced me to join the Stormcloaks again. I'll save the Imperial questline for an Imperial character. From now on, all my Nord characters will side with the Stormcloaks.

By Talos, I hate those Mer...

Well for one even if they do ally with hammerfell it won't be much effective. For one both provinces has went through a major war. And most likely will take a long time to recover. Skyrim and hammerfell in a decline state since their respective war's won't do much against the aldmeri dominion. Now you could say that hammerfell won on their own but Hammerfell might be much weaker now then. And should the thalmor put the bulk of their forces in hammerfell they would of won. (in which they could of after the WGC)

I agree on all fronts.

Oh and my Dark Elf mage is siding with the Stormcloaks. More because he is very distrustful of the Thalmor. He doesn't even worship Talos himself, he is a secret deadra worshipper. The way he sees it the Thalmor wish to control everyone, not good if your a mage that likes to do his own experiments without prying eyes. Yes the stormcloaks are suspicious of magic, but also more likely to leave you alone if you are not bothering them.

That and how the game starts. Imperials tried to chop his head off, what do you expect? And MAGES QUEST SPOILER, the Thalmor in that quest line who of course tries to kill you himself, has his Thalmor buddy try to kill you, and even sends a Thalmor hit squad after you causes a giant magical problem that adds to the distrust of mages in Skyrim. In my game I imagine that my character had a conversation with Ulfric after he became Arch Mage where he explains that the Thalmor caused that, and Ulfric can have the support of him and mages guild as long as the guild is left to itself after the war.

I agree with everything you say.

Nice information gathering. I had most of that in my head, you summed it up pretty nicely.

Just to add to the pile of stormcloak pros,

You find a letter from General Tullius to Whiterun explaining that the Thallmor have captured one of the Grey-Manes to imprison/torture/etc. and that he has permitted it and no more questions should be asked. (Tullius is just licking these elves' boots, now.)

The reason that Argonians are not kept in Windhelm is not because Ulfric or any of the Nords are anti-Argonian. The Argonians invaded Morrowind post-eruption, taking advantage of the Dark Elven weakness in order to grab their land (bit of a vengeance move I think; the dark elves enslaved argonians for hundreds of years).The Dark Elves and Argonians are segregated to prevent riots/killings from breaking out between these two races whose respective nations are at war / hate each other. That's why the Dark Elves get the previously-gifted Grey Quarter and the Argonians get the docks where they work best.

The Khajiit are generally distrusted in all of Skyrim and not just by the Stormcloaks or in Windhelm - mainly for their propensity towards thieving, and because Elsweyr seceded from the Empire and is now made up of two client states of the Thalmor.

If you listen to the convos that go on between Galmar and Ulfric, you'll see Ulfric's true motives come out. The first time you see them, Ulfric makes a pretty impassioned and powerful speech about freedom and the like. He makes a point of how there's tons of silver in Skyrim which the Empire is eager to get their hands on. The empire profits from the vast material resources and extra soldiers that Skyrim provides for the empire, but the empire is weak and counterproductive for Skyrim's interests.

Talking to Galmar Stone-Fist at one of the Stormcloak camps, he tells you about people who criticize Ulfric being power hungry, retorting "...do they not see that his anger floats on a sea of tears?".

If you talk to Brelyn Hlaalu on his farm outside Windhelm, he will tell you that all the Dark Elves in the Grey Quarter do is complain - and don't help the war effort. He tells you he intends to earn their trust by working hard, and believes the rest of the Dark Elves should do so as well.

Probably the most overwhelming single point is that if Skyrim does successfully secede from the Empire, they will still be on a united front. It's not just Skyrim vs. The Aldmeri Dominion. It's Skyrim + Hammerfell + The Empire vs. The Aldmeri Dominion. Their troops won't be coordinated together, but the numbers are still the same. The only difference is: Skyrim is stronger and wealthier as an independent nation, and Thalmor aren't roving the country side, torturing and executing innocent people ,or performing espionage in preparation for the next war.

I'd have to go back and play to find more specifics but I really feel that the Stormcloaks are the overwhelmingly superior side after all the evidence is examined.

Well here is one about the thalmor being weak. Sure the great war proved the thalmor is an "uber" military force. However there is one thing they are great at. Political and spy games. In one of their dossiers they viewed Ulfric as an asset. THat pretty much means the thalmor manipulated skyrim's/empire politics to start the civil war. Pretty much by the WGC. If the thalmor were to achieve their goals it would be because of their master of spy games and politics.

I don't see why anyone would want to fight for the Empire other than an Imperial, and even then. A Dunmer should fight for the Stormcloaks because he hates the Empire for abandoning his people and believes that after helping Ulfric, conditions for his people will be made better. An Orc could stick with the Empire, but at the same time they could also hate the Empire for not helping Orsinium when it was sacked. A Wood Elf would help the Stormcloaks because he opposes oppression. An Altmer would support the Stormcloaks because he hates the Thalmor (They slaughter their own people too.) Heck, even an Imperial character could help the Stormcloaks because he doubts the Empire...

Logical, yes. Implied, suggested, hinted at, or mentioned? No. It doesn't work as evidence or a point because it's nothing more than highly optimistic speculation. Pro-Imperial sides could assert that they could seek an alliance with Hammerfell. Not try to annex it or convince them to rejoin, but seek an alliance.

That aside, being able to push the Thalmor out of your own province is one thing. Being able to push them out of their own provinces is a bit more difficult.

Also, regarding the Markarth Incident. Nepos the Nose confirms that those who didn't run were executed, with a few exceptions. He wasn't lying, he was telling the truth, because he was confident the player wouldn't live to tell anyone As for allegations of bias, all such accusations seem to be one way. Any and all pro-Stormcloak propaganda and assertions are treated as infallible truth while anything that looks bad for Ulfric is written off as propaganda and lies. Fact is he was a Thalmor asset whom they were in contact at the time.

Hammerfell has been prospering and since its war with the Dominion because it ended its own civil-war, becoming more united. That foreshadows what will happen when Skyrim's civil war ends.

I do disagree with you, but I like how you put some thought into this rather than some of the other rambling I've seen

How is Hammerfell weaker than Cyrodiil? The "Empire" is only Cyrodiil and High Rock anymore, and Cyrodiil was beaten and is an occupied nation, while Hammerfell beat back the Thalmor and is free. This isn't making any kind of sense.

I am merely assuming Hammerfell is weak. I also never said it was weaker then Cyrodill. And while Hammerfell may be free chances are after being a warzone for 10 years I would assume the redguards need alot of recovery before going into another war with any country.

I am not up to date witht he lore but how is hammerfell prospering? They may be more united since the great war but that dosen't mean they are prospering. Hammerfell has been a warzone for 10 years. (great war plus the additional 5 years after) It would take a long time to recover...

I joined the empire before I understood the politics behind everything..

Im still not quiet understanding political injustices of the imperial legion. Why the stormcloaks? What are some impurities of the legion?

I read a bit more [this is edit] and i am understanding the stormcloaks better, they have good reason to fight. The only thing I don't understand is the bad thing about the empire taking control, can't there be some positives?

Navy wise Hammerfell is the strongest. They have cannons, coupled with the taboo tactic of putting mages on ships, Hammerfell could effectively blockade the Isles, and/or privateer and plunder their shipping and trade routes if they wanted to. That however could inadvertently ally the opposing sides on the Isles though.

Couple of reasons. Cyrodiil had a five year head start in recovering because the Thalmor gave the Imperials back all of the Cyrodiilic cities they still held (which is what people like to forget when mentioning the WGC). Hammerfell continued to fight the Thalmor for five years, and had to take everything back by force. And like I said before, winning a defensive war is one thing. Going into an enemy province and driving the Thalmor out is another.

And technically, the Empire also consists of half of Skyrim. Or all of Skyrim, if one sides with the Empire. It's only reduced to Cyrodiil and High Rock if you choose to fight it.

Edit: It should also be mentioned that the Dominion committed more of their forces to Cyrodiil than Hammerfell by the end of the war. And by the time peace was made, the Dominion had lost a lot of forces in Cyrodiil.

Coerce High Rock out of the Empire, or "coerce" High Rock out of the Empire? The Hammerfell-Skyrim alliance will want some practice killing mages before storming the beaches of Alinor.

I just don't find it likely that the two provinces that do not trust mages will peacefully negotiate High Rock out of the Empire. Well, unless High Rock immediately joins, because they realise that Cyrodill can't support them anymore.

I won't say you're wrong because even though something is telling me that it was mentioned somewhere I cannot recall it. Hammerfell hates the Empire now. They have a lot more reason to form an alliance with Skyrim than Cyrodiil seeing as it seems that The Imperials only want to save their own ass. In such a scenario, Hammerfell would suspect that Redguard forces would be left behind, sent on suicide missions, sacraficed, etc.

Skyrim and Hammerfell are more likely to form an alliance because of what they have uncommon. Both oppose the WGC, and feel betrayed by the Empire whom they see as nothing more than a Thalmor Puppet.

I don't see what you're getting at by quoting/paraphrasing Nepos the Nose. Ulfric in his Militia were drove the Forsworn out of the city and caputred Forsworn prisoners so that the Emire could regain control of the reach. If they were executed, than it was by Imperial order. And if they were permitted to live (like Madanach) it was the Silver-Blood's doing.

It should also be mentioned that magic is more powerful than the other combat styles, lore wise. And while both sides used magic, The Thalmor and their Bosmer and Khajiit conscripts used more. They however don't have the most powerful magic users though on their side, the Psijics.