Attributes should be in Skyrim, but be handled differently t : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:23 am

Ok, the term "nothing" may be put under a microscope by some. I researched and tested some numbers and put them out in a post on this subject. I would have to dig for it in another forum. At each level up, you basically made decisions that increased your H, M, or S. You still do that. ( EDIT : Anything else is too minor to make any significant impact )

It has changed since it's not an exact copy of the previous game, but the end result is the same. The same for classes. Instead of picking a predetermined set up, You are free to evolve that as you start playing.

I stil don't think that "in the end it's the same thing" primarily because more things happen with the stats system whe nyou change one stat then we have now wit hthe currrent system. Like my Str example, in Ob it effected damage, carry wieght and fatigue. So your now limited because you can only choose "one dierived stat, plus one perk" now. this is now counting that you could increase multiple stats in OB and get dozens of derived stats changes.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Thats the thing though guys.Remember all the skills morrowind had.Then in oblivion it had less...but i didnt mind that...i mean all they did was make short blad and long blade turned it into blade....and so on with a couple other skills....but now its like dumbed down so much...oooomg one handed.....two handed.Its makeing all the speices more the same.Dark elfs for examlpe are suppose to be good a blade.But they took that out!!!!And all the losers are like...but all the races look different so they must be different.But just cause they look different doesnt mean they are.And thier definalty not now...watch the next elder scrolls be less skills and less character specializations.Anyone going to stanted here and tell me that thier still just as different as they were before?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 am

You can see agility and physical strength, and yes it's painfully obvious. Madden is an example of a game that uses numbers to represent abilities of the players and it can be highly addictive to watch your players progress over time slowly gaining elusiveness, strength, etc. But it doesn't make them feel natural, I never relate a number to speed unless it is in a video game. As for your mage/warrior thing that is true even with attributes. I can make a mage who is just as fast, of not faster than a warrior in Morrowind, attributes don't inhibit that at all. Does it help to classify your characters more easily? Yes, but at the same time your warrior who is specialized in 1h will do more damage than a mage who doesn't specialize in it (via perks). Both arrive at the same alternative just through different means.

And to answer your question a solution would be for weight to make a difference on your characters speed, and jumping ability. If your actual muscle mass affected your damage, and the weight of yourself and your armor slowed you down then you would have a much more organic, natural alternative to reach the same destination as if you had just plain attributes.

I understand the infinite depth of numbers, and how they can be applied to any situation. However for me I prefer a game with less numbers, not because I don't like numbers, but because for me they bore me, and distance me from my character. I find it hard to relate to my character if he is just the sum of his numbers.

Muscle mass could be an attribute.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:23 pm

I would be for attributes coming back if they are similar to what Fallout 3 did and they don't go up every level but every 5-10 levels, anything other then that would be a mistake.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:26 am

You were on a roll with your derps. Why stop at 3/4 when you could have gone all the way with 4/4!

That would make me a total derp-tard. And we couldnt have that, now could we?

Being stronger doesn't mean being more skilled with a sword. Draining stamina isn't an agility drain and stamina and agility are very different things. All characters having essentially the same sprint speed is idiotic. Sprinting for a longer period doesn't mean sprinting faster. Draining magicka and throwing a feeblemind onto an enemy are two very different things. All in all, your drivel is derp-minded garbage that brought nothing to this topic and was a complete waste of time. Well done.

PS
Obvious troll is damned obvious.

1. Reported for calling me a troll. Not really, because Im not a dike like that.

2. You never said anything about direct translation of effects. If you want more sword damage, then improve the skill. Unless you want strength to ADDITIONALLY effect damage, then you are just getting silly. This is a game, not a simulator.

3. Characters having slug speed or road-runner speed isn't idiotic? Its sprinting, meaning you are running with all your might. You weren't meant to do it forever. The running speed is more effectively a jog and not meant to be very fast. Speed was a silly mechanic, so Bethesda took it out. It was a skill everyone was going to work on anyway. Like acrobatics, just jump around everywhere. So it was easier and better to just give it to us.

4. If you take away their magicka, you remove the ability for them to cast their big spells. I don't see how this isnt what you wanted...

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:31 am

Muscle mass could be an attribute.

Or your character could have a weight, which is better than an attribute. But that is getting into simulation territory.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:33 am

Utter bull. You may be happy that the system no longer makes any kind of sense, but what we have in Skyrim sure isn't intricate or elegant, nor will it ever be intricate to have attributes handled through perks.

It makes perfect sense, by using a bow extensively I get better at using a bow and can learn new perks and tricks with a bow, rather than improving my general agility simply because I trained with a bow. I can be paralyzed from the waist down and still learn how to use a bow effectively, so why should I become a naturally better athlete because I get better at shooting targets? The elegance of the system is the simplicity by which it solves the complexity of a skill progression determined by in-game use of a certain skill, combined with leveling and gaining new abilities with experience. Compared to the backwards system of previous TES character development this is a much better balanced mechanic.

And guess what, all characters still end up with 100 in all skills. All your precious perk system has accomplished is making 100 in all skills much less relevant, which may suit you for whatever reason, but also implies that having a skill maxed out, something that required a massive time investment, means less than investing half a dozen perk points, which may not have taken much investment of effort to get at all. Not only that but perks make sod all sense from the perspective of character development, just like a mage and a warrior having the same strength or speed or agility makes no damn sense.

Since you didn′t understand my point properly. Yes, two characters in Skyrim can have 100 in all skills, but they are still different because having 100 in a skill does not mean that you automatically have all the perks in that skill. So one of them could have all the perks in archery, heavy armor and lockpicking and be vastly different from the other character with the same maxed out skills but all the perks in conjuration and two-handed. A "warrior" and a "mage" (since you seem to be stuck in a WoW defined world where every character must have a class) does not have the same strength, speed or agility, does the character with perks in dual-wielding do both more damage and attack faster than the character with perks in illusion??

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:50 am

I think it's more of a matter that some people like to see the detailed numbers and play with them. It makes them feel more connected with their character.

Yes it was "spreadsheety" and some just miss that. I admit I liked playing with the numbers at first, but that wore. I found myself enveloped in that, more than just actually enjoying being in the world and interacting with everything.

It's still the same, without the micro managing and number crunching.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:14 am

I'll consider myself lucky if we still have Skills in TES6. After all, who needs a stat for One-Handed Skill when you can see how well your character swings a sword?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:03 pm

I stil don't think that "in the end it's the same thing" primarily because more things happen with the stats system whe nyou change one stat then we have now wit hthe currrent system. Like my Str example, in Ob it effected damage, carry wieght and fatigue. So your now limited because you can only choose "one dierived stat, plus one perk" now. this is now counting that you could increase multiple stats in OB and get dozens of derived stats changes.

Oh! That was what I was going to comment on ago. ( Ah...the joys of getting old ) Strength did not raise damage that much, from level to level, to be significant. I need to find those numbers to show you what I mean.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:41 am

If attributes come back they should be set from level one all the way to the cap. The only way to raise them would be through perks or via special in-game events. They aren't raised through skills. The old system didn't define your characters, if you wanted that +5 to three attribtues it hamstring the way you designed your class or leveled up.
But at the end of the day the attributes didn't mean to much

I'll consider myself lucky if we still have Skills in TES6. After all, who needs a stat for One-Handed Skill when you can see how well your character swings a sword?

Pointless doomsayer bull. I can do it do, if we go back that that means we'll end up with a traditional class system like in Arena. Using XP points and your abilities were all determined when you picked your class at the start of the game. Or maybe they do it like a "classic" RPG and it will be turn based and use a party system with completely preset classes you have no control over.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:38 am

My ideas are that perks are done right in Skyrim, I don't want Fallout style perks.

Also, I've said it before I'll say it again, I don't miss attributes or what they did in even the least. Perks give me far more customization options.

I won't be hoping for the return of attributes in the future, and will consider any inclusion of them to be a regression.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:25 am

If attributes come back they should be set from level one all the way to the cap. The only way to raise them would be through perks or via special in-game events. They aren't raised through skills. The old system didn't define your characters, if you wanted that +5 to three attribtues it hamstring the way you designed your class or leveled up.
But at the end of the day the attributes didn't mean to much

Pointless doomsayer bull. I can do it do, if we go back that that means we'll end up with a traditional class system like in Arena. Using XP points and your abilities were all determined when you picked your class at the start of the game. Or maybe they do it like a "classic" RPG and it will be turn based and use a party system with completely preset classes you have no control over.

what TES 6 will have:

Hit stuff with other stuff
Shoot stuff at stuff

Get tuffer
more shooty

:biggrin:

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:34 am

what TES 6 will have:

Hit stuff with other stuff
Shoot stuff at stuff

Get tuffer
more shooty

:biggrin:

Same for Fallout 4.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:10 am

Being stronger doesn't mean being more skilled with a sword. No, it's basically the same in this one. Draining stamina isn't an agility drain and stamina and agility are very different things. Nope again. Combined for simplicity's sake. All characters having essentially the same sprint speed is idiotic. Sprinting for a longer period doesn't mean sprinting faster. It makes perfect sense if they have the same speed since they are not defined by attributes any longer. Draining magicka and throwing a feeblemind onto an enemy are two very different things.Nope, same thing when it comes to stopping someone from casting the big spell. All in all, your drivel is derp-minded garbage that brought nothing to this topic and was a complete waste of time. Well done. PS Obvious troll is damned obvious.

Basically, you're sound like you're trying to rile people up for no reason. And calling someone a troll is poor form. If you think they're being disruptive, click report.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:45 am

what TES 6 will have:

Hit stuff with other stuff
Shoot stuff at stuff

Get tuffer
more shooty

:biggrin:

I can't find what I posted. Hell, I can't remember if it was 6 mts ago or a year and 6 mts ago. Loading Obl and testing a weapon will show it. People can just answer this question.

What "exactly" did Strength do and how much did do it?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:39 pm

I'm all for simple and elegant designs, but they have to represent good models as well.

Perks are a good way of modeling special skills or tricks, so they are definitely a good addition to the game. But attributes have their place as well. If your skill level represents your character's experience two people with the same amount of experience may nevertheless differ in ability based on their native attributes. An agile archer is going to be better at archery than a clumsy one, even if both archers have mastered the skill. A brilliant mage is going to be better than a dull one even if they both have the same 'degree'. It happens in real life, and I think its a good way of modeling these differences in a game.

Your attribute could always determine how quickly you gain experience in a skill, which solves the problem of two characters having 100 skill having different capabilities. If having a high agility means your archery improves faster it simply indicates that a clumsy person is going to have a tougher time mastering the skill but by the time they've both mastered it they're both equally masters. In this case, having both skills and attributes better approximates (models) real factors without being terribly complex.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:51 am

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Complete_Damage_Formula

there's wha tyour looking for Senior looks like attributes get (.75 * attribute) i nthe calculation.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:01 am

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Complete_Damage_Formula

there's wha tyour looking for Senior looks like attributes get (.75 * attribute) i nthe calculation.

Excellent example! Good job! :goodjob:

WeaponRating = BaseWeaponDamage * 0.5 * ( 0.75 + Attribute * 0.005 ) *
( 0.2 + ModifiedSkill * 0.015 ) * ( WeaponHealth / BaseWeaponHealth + 1 ) / 2

As you can see, the Att is multiplied by 0.005. That is not that much at all.

EDIt : That is just your WR.

Damage = WeaponRating * ( Fatigue / MaxFatigue + 1 ) / 2 * SneakMultiplier * PowerAttackMultiplier *
OpponentArmorRating * OpponentWeaponResistance

When you factor WR into the actual end damage formula. It become even less an issue.

EDIT 2 : Although Str does determine how much Fat you have and that in turn contributes to your actual amount of damage delt. It is still nothing to feel any great loss over.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:44 pm

All the desired effects of attributes can be handled much more intricate and elegant by expanding on the perks system, I am happy attributes are gone and I never wish to see them again.

-this- Nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, OH HELL yEAH, GOOD BYE!

Seriously, i never want the old system back, leave that to D & D.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:50 am

I prefer a more abstract, organic representation of strength then numbers. I told need to be told how strong my character is If I can physically see it.

qfw

So many of the cool things i enjoy about RPG's are no longer cool enough to be in games with all the NewFans.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:15 am

So are you guys all hoping that BGS ditches S.P.E.C.I.A.L. for Fallout 4?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:48 pm

qfw

So many of the cool things i enjoy about RPG's are no longer cool enough to be in games with all the NewFans.

God forbid there be new fans! RUN FOR THE HILLS! Ive been playing TES since morrowind, and played games all the way back to the original mario bros and duck hunt, and i like how skyrim is, change is good, although, they could have definitely put more in the game, considering its miniscule 3.8 install size for consoles.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:56 pm

So are you guys all hoping that BGS ditches S.P.E.C.I.A.L. for Fallout 4?

You should level up by what you use, not by some mystical number game that pops up just from fighting. You should not become more skilled with a missile launcher by beating geckos with a fire axe, skyrims system is MUCH better.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:46 am

NewFans aren't new, fans. They are fans of streamlining. Fans of the new stuff ...

They are like New Kids on the Block only of fandom of videogames.