I want attributes and perks in the next Elder Scrolls game. And I don't mean the same 3 pathetic attributes we have now. With attributes, we could have more variety, depth, and variables by one attribute governing multiple things. It does not have to be Oblivions system. It could even have different attributes than the traditional ones. The next TES game should have perks more akin to fallout. That would also allow for more variety, depth, and variables. What are your ideas? Do not start a flame war or I will report you.

I've already reported myself. I don't know how militant Skyrim has stripped the system of attributes, but it would certainly be nice to have potions that increase strength for increased damage, poisons that can damage agility to stagger your foe more, enchantments to raise your speed, or a spell to lower your enemy's intelligence so that they cant cast their big spell.

I agree entirely. One of my favorite parts of Oblivion was putting a bunch of points into speed and wearing heavy armor and a 2 hander.

All the desired effects of attributes can be handled much more intricate and elegant by expanding on the perks system, I am happy attributes are gone and I never wish to see them again.

Would also be nice if every character didn't jump the same height and run the same height aka acrobatics/athletics. Idk, I just prefer the primary/secondary skills to be chosen in the beginning like Morrowind/Oblivion, otherwise every character will be exactly the same (like they are now in Skyrim).

The game would have that addictive quality that WoW had where people just tweak with the numbers. I don't understand why people have such a love for numbers and why they're so appealing. I understand the fact that they're one of the deeper doctrines of man, and that Math and Science are the basis for our understanding of the world. But they don't feel organic, they feel artificial, which to me makes the game feel less immersive.

those numbers are still everywhere else in Skyrim, so I think thats moot.

Thats what advocates have been saying for months,

"I'd like Attributes, no I don't want what games prior to this did it"

It′s the opposite...in Morrowind and Oblivion every character could/would reach 100 athletics and acrobatics...it was simply a matter of persistence, no matter what skills/class/background you picked. Now every character has to sacrifice something because you can′t have every perk in the game so even two characters with 100 in all skills will be vastly different.

Because numbers tell you how strong your stat is. Which allow for level progression. Its simple really.

If they do come bakc I'd like them to have a big impact on how the yeffect your character, and wha the can do well. Having dreived stats depend completely on them too, (unlike the "bonus" 100-200 carry wieght you get in previous titles I'd like to see somethign liek they had i nthe originla fallouts, a flat wieght to str point value that everyone has to use.) Plus I'd love to see "no Cheating" from the AI IE having flat bonus ot damage with out the stats to back it up.

I think somethign liek a modified D&D ruleset for stats would be ok, stats are relitively static once you set them in the beginning, and only really improve every few levels up. With Perks supplementing the bonus you get for attributes.

I'm in love with this new innovative approach to leveling. I hope they use this new system as a baseline and build on it for future installments-- and never look back.

I want attributes, classes, birthsigns, the whole lot back. And I want perks to be improved, or cut.

Too bad that won't happen, I think older members are familiar with Beth's stance of cut features. (along the lines of a flawed "less is more" concept.)

I prefer a more abstract, organic representation of strength then numbers. I told need to be told how strong my character is If I can physically see it.

Agreed. The main flaw in the system in Oblivion was that it focused too much on getting five points in three abilities, which led to a lot of unnecessary number crunching. There are a lot better alternatives than just scrapping Attributes that would leave depth and complexity of character creation/development intact. A Fallout type system is one way, and the modding community came up with other ways with various mods for Oblivion.

qft

At the end of the day, you still have a class, attribute distribution and such. Nothing has really changed.

I agree. Perks should be unlocked by a combination of attribute and skill levels, and they should offer unique abilities rather than stuff that ought to come naturally with the weapons or the skill usage. Damage should not be a matter of putting five perks in the proper overall category but rather a matter of having skill with a weapon and the physique to use it well. Specific power attacks and weapon blocks, on the other hand, are well suited for requiring perks.

Utter bull. You may be happy that the system no longer makes any kind of sense, but what we have in Skyrim sure isn't intricate or elegant, nor will it ever be intricate to have attributes handled through perks.

And guess what, all characters still end up with 100 in all skills. All your precious perk system has accomplished is making 100 in all skills much less relevant, which may suit you for whatever reason, but also implies that having a skill maxed out, something that required a massive time investment, means less than investing half a dozen perk points, which may not have taken much investment of effort to get at all. Not only that but perks make sod all sense from the perspective of character development, just like a mage and a warrior having the same strength or speed or agility makes no damn sense.

The problem is there is no tangible representation for people to see, calculate, and understand. Abstractions are hard for people to get.

But you can't physically see how strong or agile your character is, at least not beyond what is painfully obvious, which is that your average mage can jump just as high and run just as fast as a battle-hardened warrior. Maybe that makes sense to you, and maybe you don't even want it to make sense, as long as you can avoid numbers and having to deal with other complications than picking completely meaningless perks in order to somehow describe the character you're trying to create, but I hope you'll pardon me for vehemently disagreeing with that approach.

plenty has changed, IF you want to "simulate" say what Str increase did in the previous games did you'd have to put your level up points into stamina, perk in a melee weapon damage and even them your limited by damage perks are usually what only 3 ranks? Attributes are gone you now jus thave a choice on what derived statistics you can increase independently.



Indeed.

Being stronger doesn't mean being more skilled with a sword. Draining stamina isn't an agility drain and stamina and agility are very different things. All characters having essentially the same sprint speed is idiotic. Sprinting for a longer period doesn't mean sprinting faster. Draining magicka and throwing a feeblemind onto an enemy are two very different things. All in all, your drivel is derp-minded garbage that brought nothing to this topic and was a complete waste of time. Well done.

PS
Obvious troll is damned obvious.

You seem to be missing the point of stats. They allow for any number of thing (i.e. damage, lock picking, anything you can imagine). They are not just there for show, despite what you seem to think.

Ok, the term "nothing" may be put under a microscope by some. I researched and tested some numbers and put them out in a post on this subject. I would have to dig for it in another forum. At each level up, you basically made decisions that increased your H, M, or S. You still do that. ( EDIT : Anything else is too minor to make any significant impact )

It has changed since it's not an exact copy of the previous game, but the end result is the same. The same for classes. Instead of picking a predetermined set up, You are free to evolve that as you start playing.

You can see agility and physical strength, and yes it's painfully obvious. Madden is an example of a game that uses numbers to represent abilities of the players and it can be highly addictive to watch your players progress over time slowly gaining elusiveness, strength, etc. But it doesn't make them feel natural, I never relate a number to speed unless it is in a video game. As for your mage/warrior thing that is true even with attributes. I can make a mage who is just as fast, of not faster than a warrior in Morrowind, attributes don't inhibit that at all. Does it help to classify your characters more easily? Yes, but at the same time your warrior who is specialized in 1h will do more damage than a mage who doesn't specialize in it (via perks). Both arrive at the same alternative just through different means.

And to answer your question a solution would be for weight to make a difference on your characters speed, and jumping ability. If your actual muscle mass affected your damage, and the weight of yourself and your armor slowed you down then you would have a much more organic, natural alternative to reach the same destination as if you had just plain attributes.





I understand the infinite depth of numbers, and how they can be applied to any situation. However for me I prefer a game with less numbers, not because I don't like numbers, but because for me they bore me, and distance me from my character. I find it hard to relate to my character if he is just the sum of his numbers.

I don't mind attributes, but could do without classes if they're handled like Oblivion with its major and minor skills. In Oblivion, I ended spending too much time micro-managing my character's stats. First in selecting skills that would corespond to the widest variety of linked attributes, then in making sure I leveled up using enough variety in my activities to ensure I got the max bonus points to apply to attributes. In Skyrim I enjoyed feeling free to do what I wanted, when I wanted, knowing that everything was going to go into leveling my character. A compromise that included things that are hold-overs from traditional pencil and paper roleplaying games and embracing the real-time gameplay of Elder Scrolls games would be excellent