I do believe artistic integrity is alive and well for some devs, movie makers etc.

Pride, passion, reputation and the love for the job means more to some than money.It's the empty suits upstairs that live for arbitrary numbers to stockpile in bank accounts.They will never stamp out the more talented individuals that carry them, because then they are nothing...in my opinion.

The OP was good but I forget what this is about now.

The very first Final Fantasy I ever played was 7 (the PC version), after a friend asked if I wanted to borrow his when he saw the games I liked to play, namely Arena and Daggerfall. I absolutely loved it and couldn't wait to play another one. When I finally got my hands on Final Fantasy 9 I was so excited - but then the disappointment set in quickly. Everything was so different. Everything I knew about the game had changed. I had to learn anew large portions of the game mechanics. And then they did it to me again with FFX. Why the heck are they doing this to me!

No, really I got used to it when I realized that's just how that franchise works. Every game they try to change it up, and I think people in general resist change. Some like it, but I think most don't. And that's somewhat reasonable. Who wants to relearn a game system? I just want to get immersed in the story and not worry about the particulars.

Bethesda rather spoiled us in this regard. Arena and Daggerfall had some differences, but they weren't that drastic. Morrowind was a bigger change, but there was enough continuity that veteran players were able to get into it fairly quickly. Oblivion, too. But now, Bethesda wants to change this up. They want to go all Final Fantasy on us - and the veterans weren't expecting that. I'd say most of us don't even want it.

Will it be okay? Sure. Will we still enjoy the game? I'm fairly certain we will. It's just hard for many to accept change, especially in something we love. Look at how emotional people get when a favorite character disappears from a TV series, or when a hero gets played by a different actor in a sequel.

And by the way, the we in this includes me. I don't like change. I would love for every game to be a new Arena or Daggerfall experience, but the truth is I can never recapture the experiences I first had with those games. I can only have new experiences with new games. But I know, as long as they don't get too carried away, I will still enjoy Skyrim and play it for many, many countless hours, just as I have with every other game in the series.



Yes, and unfortunately some people are like that. You'll encounter that just about anywhere you go, and it's a real shame that gamers have gotten this way because we used to be a pretty tight, respectful group back in the "old" days. Some people seem to think that having a higher post count, or an older join date, or any number of other criteria entitles them to more say than someone else. It's rather silly really, since join dates and post counts are pointless.

That would be like saying someone born before someone else should have more rights. When you joined a forum or were born into the world doesn't mean you are entitled to any more or less than anyone else. Or at least it certainly shouldn't. I might have more respect for an old timer, but it doesn't mean everything they say is right, nor is their opinion necessarily worth more to me than somebody that is young or new.

It would be nice to see civility and mutual respect - regardless of any fictional, virtual attribute - return to these boards. The Bethesda forums were held in high regard by many just a few years ago for being so helpful, tolerant and friendly. We had a very strong and caring community.



Yes, but I think that's only natural. You defend the things you care about. However, in a way this is contradictory to the first part of your statement. You refer to people "invading," people coming here AFTER you were here. You are in essence saying that because they came after, because they joined after you, have less posts than you, they should not be listened to especially when you do not share their opinion of the game that you've been following for years and they just now showed up out of the blue. "Why should they get any say?!"

Well, that goes back to what I already said. I can't very well say that everyone deserves mutual respect and deserves to be heard, and that whether you are young or old, new or veteran, you should still have every chance to be heard. If Bethesda still only had the small handful of fans it had back in the days of Arena, we would be getting the games we really wanted, but they would be pretty crappy I think. Not all they could be. Certainly nothing like Oblivion and Skyrim. It is only because of new fans, fresh blood that Bethesda has been able to grow to the point where it can make games on such a scale. So really, we need the new players and the new opinions.

If the game changes drastically, which does happen from time to time, then ultimately some people leave and find something else to play. Of course if that happens, you are now going to be the new person among that game's veterans, so anything you might say that you would like to see on the basis that The Elder Scrolls had it would likely be met with the same defensiveness that new players experience here.

Games change to meet the desires of the majority. Companies have to do that for the best return on their investments. Sometimes it means that those of us who love what the game used to be have to swallow some new changes. If we are against it, then are we truly fans of the company, or just fans of an old game for which we will never be able to repeat the identical experience we had the first time through? If the latter, than what's the point of resisting the changes?

Just my thoughts.

Meh, I've mostly given up trying to press my opinions on others, especially with games. My [censored]ing and moaning isn't going to change anything. I'll either have to learn to accept it or find a different hobby, preferably one I have more control over. :shrug:

Should my opinions be worth more than other people's? Honestly, yeah, a tiny bit more. Because as a moderator I definitely provide more than just buying the game. The same can be said to a lesser degree about other long time fans. You're the people that have made the Elder Scrolls series successful. The people that recommend the game to their friends. You're worth more.

On the other hand, should the wishes of the traditional fan keep innovation from occurring? No. History is full of examples of once proud institutions dying simply because there is a failure to innovate. Everything must change to stay relevant.

Let me retract my previous statement. I hate opinions based from ignorance(imho of course).

I think there's a difference between being a recognized authority on a subject and mere opinions. If I say that armor degradation should stay, and you say it should go, neither one of our opinions should carry any more or less weight. Just because one is a moderator or a 15 year veteran, it shouldn't give any more or less value to your opinions than those of someone who just joined the forums today.

That's very true.

But basically, you can't alienate your core group of followers. That's what I'm trying to say.

I don't envy the execs at Bethesda that have to find a balance between alienating loyal customers and creating new ones, especially while trying to make a profit off a multimillion dollar production investment.

The worst one is when you tell someone or a group of people about something awesome and cool for years - but they ignore you. Then when this thing gets popular and they run up to ask you if you know about this "awesome new thing". Just absolute facepalm.

Exact thing happened to me with Deus Ex. I've been telling people for years how awesome that game is, they get Human Revolution, and then they love it. Just...I told you before, you stupid [censored]. It's rage comic worthy.

Yep, there was a time when nobody would listen to me about the Game of Thrones books.Now they talk about it when we are at the pub, and have the audacity to recommend the books to me, because they saw the tv show and are all reading them now. :facepalm:

This is the number one argument used in Fallout discussion, as the series is sort of divided in two parts divided by ten years.


IMO the argument is flawed as it serves only nostalgic purpose. I don't like it when people bring their emotions into arguments. Opinions are one thing, but especially in the above people often present their opinions as fact.

It's not so much older members/higher post count members opinions/moderators are worth more, it's just they're more likely to be heard/read. A green name or 4 stars under your avatar is harder to miss than a new member with no stars and no avatar. And chances are the older member/moderators posts are more informed than the newer ones. Obviously not always the case, but perhaps generally.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, mine is just better.

My five stars automatically makes my opinion the correct one for those with less than 5 stars! Muahahahahahahaahahaha!

But to be serious, knee-jerk reactions tend to put me in a fowl mood, and Pistolero's point. Especially Pistolero's point. Also, I'm not a fan of completely dismissing someone if they're new. Been to a few where older members, or those with high post counts, basically, chased away anyone new members for the sole reason of not being there as long as they have or having the post counts.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. The number of posts you have or the starts under your name shouldn't matter. Unless you're Todd Howard. Then your word is law. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


And for the second part... Feels like that's what happened to my favourite childhood VG series.

When I posted a thread about a... rather contraversal topic in Skyrim forum, some one said something along the lines of (no one is going to take you seriously on these forums any more)

my response was. people took me serious?

concerning these forums seniority means pretty much nothing.

A lot of good comments in this thread, including JCSpencer's remarks.

I've been playing ES games since 2004 and agree that it's better to keep your expectations low -- the experience of playing "Morrowind" as my introduction to the Elder Scrolls universe can't be repeated, and I have to take games like "Oblivion" and "Skyrim" on their own terms.

I've encountered the attitude of veteran versus newcomer since starting to play "Guild Wars" last year. Many of their forumites have been playing GW since it began, say for five or six years, and have their own subculture the way the ES community does; they have their own jargon as well. It's humbling to not be able to post intelligently on their forums when I can't rattle off their lore at will. (Not that I'm a loremaster in ES either.) I can only imagine how much of a subculture the "EVE Online" people have.

Well not really. I mean I've been a part of the Harry Potter fanbase since 1998 when I read the first book. Kristina Horner though got into them much later but shes been to leakycon, gone to every midnight release, written songs about Harry Potter and met cast members. So I would say her opinion matters more than mine because yes I've known about it longer but shes just a better, more knowledgeable fan than I am.

Well I feel my opinion is stronger than a newbie whose just joined the ES forums asking the devs to allow briast size alteration during character creation. But I'm a [censored] I guess...A HIGHLY ENLIGHTENED [censored] I might add. YES.

There are two acronyms that have been around since the 1960s, denoting the two camps: FIJAGH and FIAWOL ("Fandom is just a . hobby", versus "Fandom is a way of life"). I'm in the same boat as you in not being a hardcoe enough fan.

Well, me with my four stars am undermining that by liking (most of) the new changes

Perhaps that's something else then I should have added along with not just being a long term fan, but a dedicated fan as well. Again, I'm NOT saying that should make an opinion more valuable than someone's who doesn't get into the series as much, or who hasn't played as long, but only that I, being only human, do feel more entitled at times for being more dedicated and/or being a part of it longer longer.

For an example, since other's have used TES already I'll use it too. I've had Daggerfall since '98 (I was 9 at the time so I didn't really grasp a lot of it as much until years later though to be fair, but I played, as best as I could, non the less), I then picked up Morrowind at release, then Tribunal, then Boodmoon, then the GoTY Edition for the Original Xbox. Then of course I got Oblivion at release, and while not quite what I expected I still got it and enjoyed it, as well as SI (much better IMHO), then again, the GotY Edition on the 360. I 've also went back and played DF and a little bit of Arena, and have even payed $80 for a boxed copy of Daggerfall. So aside from all the money I've put into the series, I also don't play this game like just a game, but also like a book, where I learn everyone's story, their history, THE history, not to mention trying to complete every single quest in the game in every different play style possible to get the full experience. Not to mention that not only playing like this, through thousands of hours of modded/unmodded Arena/DF/MW/OB, there's those who keep on making mods for these games, years after they're out, some extremely complex and reinvent the game entirely, and that's an entire higher level of dedication (MW Overhaul, TR, OOO, Qarls TP's, etc etc etc etc etc).

So, now with Skyrim and it's mass marketing (again, not inherently a bad thing), and the shifting of the target audience (it seems anyways), do I think my opinion matters more than the masses of new players, who most of which (I feel anyways) just play until the next best thing comes out, who come in and ask for riding on dragons, guns, multiplayer, and every other idea I feel is silly to be added (and even removed, in the case of some of the dev's decisions) to TES? Absolutely. Do I know it's a bunch of BS and my opinion really DOESN'T matter in the long run more so than anyone else's? Absolutely. Like I said, I'm only human, and sometimes a false sense of entitlement hits me. My problem is what happens when those requests come from the vast majority, and thus changes are made (hell have already been made) to do what seems is appease them. I guess at that point I just move on, but it always svcks when something like that happens to what you enjoy.

Though, this isn't necessarily just about TES, but just an example.

I absolutely hate when somebody says: "I've been doing this for thirty years!" because it means, every time (without fail - and I mean it) that they don't know a gd thing about what they're doing. They're just trying to throw (what they consider to be) their weight around, thinking that all that time counts for something (it doesn't). Maybe thirty years ago, they knew everything, but then they let themselves become stuck in their old ways and refused to adapt and evolve.

It's no different with game or movie franchises, book series, or what have you. Saying that they've "been with ___ since the beginning!" doesn't mean that they have the authority to determine that anything new in the series svcks. All they're doing is throwing (what they consider to be) their weight around, thinking that it counts for something (it doesn't). People like this are stuck in their old ways and refuse to adapt to anything new.

If somebody feels the need to say that they've been doing something for X years, then they need a new career. Similarly, if they feel the need to loudly exclaim that they've been with a series "Since The First One! I'm Awesome!" then they need to start a new hobby. They're stuck in their old ways and unless they radically change what they're doing, they're just going to be miserable forever (or soon become miserable) because *nothing* coming down the road is ever going to be like what they left behind.

Like when you're a child, and you're friends are in a sort of "group". You think you should make more important choices, because you are older, and know better. In a couple minutes - wait whatwere we talking about? I honestly forgot...