It's called "Morrowind" and "Fallout: New Vegas."


B'AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW the big mean fans don't love every fiber of Skyrim!
I'm sure they can dry their tears with the millions of dollars they made off the game, don't worry.

I've never played New Vegas, but doing that did break quests in Morrowind. Tell you what, next time you do a playthrough of Morrowind, kill Caius Cosades on sight and see how easy it is to do the main quest.

I think being able to "break" the main quest is a good thing. Looks like you won't be Nerevar since you're a cold-blooded killer.

1. Let's start off with the amount of bugs this game has even after five patches and the patches bring up even more crippling problems.

2. Magic us one dimensional and its bare bones in this game without spells creation and the lack of overall all spells, give us back our catalog of spells at least dating back to Morrowind, that would give us options and versatility with the system our spell users once had.

3. The lack of attributes they could have been added in to work with the perk system and we would have an even deeper system with less percent boost in the perks.

4. The cities are pathetically small they feel more like villages than a proper city. They also do not offer very much and why do I have to do missions to buy a house gold is apparently not good enough.

5. The factions are way to short the civil war quest was a joke it tells the same story in a way to similar fashion it was basically copy and pasted: then the Eye ot Magnus was never really explained in the college, we needed longer and deeper quest lines.

1. Extremely short, shallow factions. Not near enough of them. Not near enough variety in factions. Continued the Oblivion trend of factions being obsessive organizations i.e. Oblivion Fighter's Guild: 'We hate the Blackwood Company' to Skyrim Companions: 'We hate the Silverhand'. Not enough of the factions actually doing what their charter says they should do... Why don't the companions do more mercenary work? Maybe you need to decide if you'll take contracts from Imperials, or Stormcloaks, or both and then that opens up further options. Why don't you have any opposition or rival to moving up in the ranks? Why do you become privy to the Companion's darkest, most abominable secret after knowing them for two hours?

2. No Spellmaking...crappy, limited magic compared to previous installments

3. No attributes/stats/the revamped character creation in general. Races don't have as many meaningful differences. Less skills, less choices in how I begin my character.

4. Weak writing and quest design for a large amount of the game. There are some gems (Ill-met by Moonlight, the murder mystery in Morthal, the murderer in Windhelm), but overwhelmingly they've relied too much on the unsatisfying 'Radiant Quest'/'Radiant Story' stuff.

5. In general there's just not as much interesting stuff to do. I feel that each game is 'Do the Main Quest', 'Do the 1-2 factions applicable to your character, or else branch out and, absurdly, become the Harbinger, Archmage, Listener, Nightingale, and Mega-Bard all at once, and then scavenge for quests around the world. There just needs to be more organizations, more lengthy quest-lines.

6. I'll throw an extra one in. I hate the pacing of this game: You are being executed for the crime of being within 1 mile of Ulfric Stor- OH MY GOD A DRAGON! OH MY GOD TELL THE JARL! OH MY GOD HELP US KILL THE DRAGON! OH MY GOD GREYBEARDS SUMMON YOU THROUGH VOICE IN SKY. Take it easy. I don't want to rush off and have to feel like the world is waiting on me to save it. In Morrowind I get off the boat, get directed to Caius Cosades, he tells me I'm a noob and hands me a few gold to get some training and do other things until I'm pro enough to go talk to Hasphat Antabolis about a certain puzzle box. Too much hand-holding, and making the player feel like Mr. Special right from the get-go.

I highly doubt Bethesda will do much with most of the criticism in this thread despite how beneficial it is....

This. Actions should have consequences and we should have choice.
And there was a way to complete the main quest still with Morrowind. And a warning once you killed Caius about the impact of the kill, in case you wanted to reload.

New Vegas had a failsafe: Yes Man. While Yes Man is killable, he's an AI program that also has access to an entire network of robots. While you could kill him, he'd simply respawn by uploading himself onto another robot within a couple days time. Therefore, slaughtering everyone limited your choices in the main quest down to Yes man, but the main quest was always doable.

Even so, if it were possible to break the main quest, I don't see the harm in that. I much prefer it to having an army of invulnerable NPCs relentlessly attacking me. I mean ffs:

Yea probably. With the kind of budget they can bring to the table though...

As much as I enjoyed New Vegas, I can't help but say it's an overrated, ugly and near-broken mess of a game. Skyrim is a vastly superior from my perspective. Still, that doesn't excuse the multitude of things New Vegas (As I said, a markedly inferior game in my eyes) gets so right, that Skyrim gets so wrong... (This argument is even valid if just using Fallout 3)


Okay, I really like the intro. I think it's the best intro they've done, even topping Fallout 3's amazing intro sequence. But you're right, overall, every aspect of Skyrim has huge pacing issues. They basically start at the climix, with no rising action, no respite, or whatever. It's still better than Oblivion's "WELCOME TO THE TUTORIAL, BRB WORLD IS EXPLODING LOL"

1. Lack of difficulty, no need to change up strategy, no challenging boss encounters, no meaningful loot due to overpowered crafting system and bland item generation.

2. Little to no branching quests, or quests with alternate outcomes and ways of completion, npcs in general fail to make you care enough to help them, over-reliance on radiant story, and the written quests that are there aren't written that well.

3. Combat mechanics have not evolved much at all. Dark Messiah of Might and magic from 2006 has better first person combat and magic, and those devs are owned by Bethesda/Zeni

4. Too many immortal npcs, and too may buggy quests even with the high level of handholding and failsafes

5. Everything can be done by everyone in a single playthrough. There is no reason to play the game multiple times because nothing will ever deviate or change, playing an orc is no different from an elf or human, completing a quest one way is usually the only way, there is nothing at all to miss or be locked out from. The difference between siding with the stormcloaks or imperials comes down to what color guards do you like better.

Not gonna requote the whole thing but i agree with every point you make. One other thing is the fact that we have no more guild rank anymore. We are the noob once we walk in the door of the guild, and in a few quests were the chosen one of the guild or guildmaster. I just miss moving up the ranks for example in the thieve's guild in Oblivion. It was just a cool part they took out.

Edit: noticed you did mention guild rank, but I wanted to put my two cents in too

Alright, to be fair the intro itself isn't so bad. I hate having to wait for the slow NPCs until Alduin shows up, but at least after that I can kind of breeze through and get my 17th character on his way, unlike in Oblivion where I'm walking behind the darn Emperor who moves so. darn. slow. Still, the intro and what comes immediately after really shoe-horns you into the whole Dragonborn thing when maybe just this once you don't want to be the Dovahkiin. First you have to escape with Hadvar or Ralof, and they both direct you to the nearest town. Once at the nearest town, you're directed to the Jarl because you need to warn the world that a big scary thing is out to destroy it, and so on. There's maybe one good place where you can back off and say 'Okay, I'm done with the main quest. I delivered the message, now I'm just an adventurer like anyone else'.

Conversely, in Morrowind you don't find out you're special until after hours-and-hours of running around being an Imperial spy (or alternatively, throwing Caius' coded package into the nearest barrel and forgetting it altogether).

And as well-done as Skyrim's intro is (I admit I really liked it the first time), I'd still prefer Morrowind's approach: A Character creation screen and a boot out the door. The less the first hour of gameplay forces on me, the better in my view.

1. Crouch button, you're not even CROUCHING.
2. Essential NPC's
3. Dark Brotherhood way too short. Overall storylines need more options that can lead to multiple playthroughs.
4. Marriage dialogue is annoying.
5. Werewolf form is weak.

I agree the guild ranks of Morrowind were great and I liked that you had to be proficient in certain skills to advance within the guild, I loved the fact you had to actuate achieve something and have a certain power level to advance within the guild. That has always been one thing I have loved about Morrowinds factions.

Here's why New Vegas >Skyrim

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/27560729

Omg I'm bookmarking this for future arguments.



Did you play it only at initial release? It was pretty bugged initially but got most bugs fixed within the first month, save for three (all avoidable) and of course the same PS3 stability issues Skyrim has.
And I wouldn't call it overrated, though I can see how a person wouldn't like it. It's not overrated because the target audience is definitely pleased, but the target audience is definitely smaller than say, Skyrim or FO3. For visuals....well it's a damned desert, what do you expect? Plus it used the same engine as FO3, and I don't think FO3 is often referred to as "pretty;" grey everywhere.

But yeah there's categories of quality that New Vegas absolutely curbstomps Skyrim in, (NPC interactivity, RPG elements) which is a shame since we're supposed to be moving forward. And yeah like you said, even FO3 (a game two "generations" ago, so to speak) can curbstomp Skyrim too. (random encounters, NPC immersion)

In the RPG genre yes but as a game from the start no. FNV was really boring.

I might have to disagree about Morrowind. Before the game actually began, the Emperor pulled you out of prison and put you on a carriage. That carriage then took you to a ship, which then took you to Vvardenfell. No, you knew you were special from the start. You just didn't know why.

For the next game, I want to see something a bit different. Even if I start as a prisoner, allow me to set up my character immediately, then dump me somewhere. Say the wagon tipped over and the guard died when he was thrown from his seat or something. Give me some dialogue that will point me to a tutorial and the direction they want me to go, but don't force me to do either of them. Then let me set off into the world, joyfully ignorant of the troubles to come and of my prophesied greatness.

Anyways, my list. Some of these will be a bit broad. I suppose I could expound upon them if asked (though I'd be surprised if anyone did).

1. The built environment.
2. The crappy UI
3. The ever decreasing number of customization choices.
4. The poorly written guild quest lines
5. The static world.

It seems that Skyrim was just an experiment to test out the new engine. Even Fallout 3 had more choice than Skyrim...

for you

I had fun with NV, jsut after I did everything I ran out of things to do.

I guess that's true.

Yet, at the same time you could just as easily say 'well that's the Imperial bureaucracy for you...sending prisoners across the world at a whim and letting them loose'. But there's also a lot more flexibility for interpretation. Oftentimes I played a Dunmer so I could rationalize my character saying 'Well if you want a mole in Vvardenfell I guess you would send a Dunmer'.

Plus all you really know is that the Emperor decided to personally send you somewhere, not why or how. If I make a Khajiit with thieving skills I can say that I was once a great thief in the Imperial City (though my skills have somewhat atrophied while languishing in prison), and the Emperor wants to use my skills in Vvardenfell as his spy in exchange for my freedom. The non-descriptiveness really helps with making your own backstory, if you decide not to advance along the main quest.

1. My biggest thing is that there's no real pride in whatever race you decide to pick. Most of the racial abilities I personally never use because there are shouts that do the exact same thing (sometimes better than the actual ability). And let's be honest, none of them are that useful anyways, besides the Altmer's Highborn. The few things I can think of that go against this is the the background perks like, for example, Bosmer are resistent to Poison and Disease. The only other thing I can think of is that Orcs get access to the Strongholds right away, which means absolutely nothing anywas because there's basically nothing you can do there.

2. Cities lack atmosphere. The two exceptions in my opinion are Riften and Morthal, and maybe Markarth to a lesser degree. Everything else is basically the same generic town just with different landscaping. Which leads me to another point, why can't I buy a house in the one actually interesting city in Skyrim? And yes, I'm talking about Morthal. Which leads me to a THIRD point... Everyone is always telling you not to go into the swamp at night in Morthal because it's dangerous, but when you go into the swamp at night, NOTHING HAPPENS. Kind of a downer. I'm also going to say that there is a disappointing lack of meaningful city quests, aside from buying your house quests. It's basically become Thane and never get to do anything ever again.

3. Werewolf and Vampire do more harm than good. Werewolves especially. I'd go into more detail, but Dawnguard will hopefully fix this anyways, and I'm sure everyone else in this thread already has.

4. Faction storylines are terrible, especially Mages College and Companions. In the Mages College, you never learn about magic, you're just expected to be the greatest wizard ever after the first quest. As Archamge, on my mage character, I wasn't even past apprentice in any of the schools of magic yet, but apparently I'm already the best mage in all of Skyrim. I was also disappointed that we had this great named character, The Caller, that's mysterious and interesting, but he just ends up dying right as you meet him and we get to fight the boring Aldmeri guy we already knew would turn evil sooner or later anyways. I didn't even know what the Companions DID on my first playthrough, besides that they were a bunch of Warriors that live together and be Werewolves. Maybe the Circle would be interesting if they did something other than be the Circle. Theives Guild was a disappointment because you never actually STEAL anything (but, they're theives, WHY would they ever want to do that?), you're too focused on being forced into preisthood to eternally serve Nocturnal for the rest of existence. Lastly, the Dark Brotherhood was pretty great, although I wish they would have given more bonuses, instead of giving you everything for being mediocre.

5. It would have been cool for there to be more factions. Like, you could be a part of a Necromancer group, maybe you could be a part of the Vigilants of Stendarr, maybe you could even join the Aldmeri Dominion. Which leads me to another point; why do we never have anything to do with the Aldmeri Dominion throughout the entire game, when they're the single most important thing happening within Tamriel at the time? Bethesda's literally just saying "Oh, yeah, there's this epic dispute between the Empire and the Dominion going on, have fun settling the disputes of Ulfric and Tullius, both of whom are equally incompetent." It would have also been nice if you could invest more in cities so that you'd feel more tied down to one or the other, as opposed to having the option to be everyone's Thane at the same time (which, in my opinion, is ridiculous) and only being able to live in one place, with all houses in every hold being equally amazing, as opposed to you only really using the one house that really matters because it's the "best" one you have.

1-The Guilds. I am hard to dissapoint (not sure if good or bad) but the way guilds worked in this game was... shallow. Too short, and the guildmates were practically ornaments to make the guild feel at least "populated". There is an exception with a couple of characters that you know from the beginning they are going to be important an that's it. No feel of belonging to a guild. The pacing for the storylines was far too quick.

2-Companions. The leveling, or more accurately lack of in them, plus nowhere as interesting charactes as in F:NV.

3-The Cities. Expected them to be bigger as well as Falkreath, Morthal, Dawnstar, and Winterhold actually being distinct not a copy of what were supposed to be villages. I tell you, you've seen Riverwood, you've seen them all.

4-Horses Nuff' said.

5-Variety in magic.

1. Mage quest line - What the hell was that crap? I thought people were complaining just to complain. I just finished it and... wow. It lacked so much flow and the dialogue seemed so damn rushed. Nothing clicked at all. So dissapointed.

2. The lack of good choices through dialogue and it having a different outcome. Where is the dialogue with depth?

3. The game needs some strict quest requirements. Meaning quests were you need specific skills,perks,etc to complete.

4. Repetative/lengthy dungeon crawling. Labrynthia for example. What was the point of the length of that place? ( I like long dungeons if they are interesting )

5. More depth overall.