A moot is convened every time a High King/Queen dies to determine which member of the royal family is suitable for the throne, and that's also how Torygg was chosen. Ulfric was at the moot to select a new High King/Queen when Torygg was selected, and even then he raised hell over it. When he didn't get his way, he decided to take action and killed Torygg since he got frustrated using just words. I can't imagine that, if they did choose to go to a Moot, it would've went well if the Empire didn't intervene. Ulfric was liable to just kill everyone who didn't agree with him if he took out Torygg, and Skyrim was still under the Empire's protection. The only way Ulfric would've become High King after killing Torygg would be because he threatened or scared the other Jarls. So Ulfric kinda is the source for all the unrest, no matter what his reasoning is. If he just played dead or chosen to bide his time or not done things to the nth degree, there'd be no Markarth incident, no dead High King, no civil war.

I had been under the impression that Ulfric was brainwashed by the Thalmor to secretly create chaos in Skyrim.

well seeing how the markarth incindent and his imprisonment happened before he was at the moot when the high king was chosen, id be pretty pissed to at a new king that dosent have the balls to stand up against the injustice the empire is allowing and maybe not agreeing bjt is helping people get taken away. Hell the thalmor wede alrdy persecuting the nords before the markath incident or otherwise why would protection from the thalmor be the main selling point to ulfric and his men. U see the dead worshipper at the shrines but u also hear repeaty about people disappearing because they spoke or sang about talos. Nothing was being done and withe new king nothing was gonna change either. Hell the lasy who taught the king said he listened and looked up to ulfric and that he thought about rebelling then went on ansd onabout the reasons qhy the high king would never do it. Things needed to changge for the people of skyrim and the new king was not only weak and very impressionable but also that the peoe of skyrim would constantly be harrased and persecuted by the thalmor with leader not doing jack to help them or stand up for them. I believe the reason why its said that ulfric is all gunho about stopping bandits and protecting the nord people iz not only is the majority of his army nords but I see it as a demonstration that hey im doing something about all this im protecting and fighting for you...something the last king and the empire didnt do for us. So he challenged the high king in a duel that was allowed by skyrims laws and not the empire because hes driven to make skyrim free and after hes done so he can show he did it legally by skyrims laws. He didnt do it because hes power hungry but because the system needs to change and at the moment hes the only one whos got the drive and balls to do it and so he needs the position and the power to be able to make the changes. Hell id be a bit smug too if all that I hoped and planned and fought for came to pass and I saw myself finally in the position ive wanted to where I can make the changes.
The talos thing is his selling and rallykng point bc not only id tibed septi a badass nord so they believe but because its all bassd on talos in which the country iz being harrased and persecuted and even the cause of the empires betrayal to ulfric was over talos.

Source?

Pretty sure I read it in an in-game book. Let me see if I can find it...

Hmm, poked around quite a bit and I can't find it. It may've actually been some in-game dialogue, but I can't remember who said or what I said to them to get them to mention it. My first guess would be it was something Galmar or Ulfric said, since this is the first character I'd played where I talked to either of them as a Stormcloak. Still, could've just been some passing chitchat or a propaganda piece, but it makes sense considering Ulfric's fiery temper. I'll keep an ear to the ground, though, just in case I do remember where I got that tidbit from.

If you listen to Hadvar's uncle, everyone could worship Talos without the Thalmor kidnapping them before the Markarth incident. The Thalmor only begain enforcing the Talos ban when they found out the Imperials purposely weren't.

And sometimes laws need to be changed, even if they're tradition. That law that essentially legalizes regicide is only kept around because it is a custom, despite it being a crappy law.

The only mention of an earlier moot that I can recall is Sybille Stentor saying that Ulfric had spoken out about independence at one, and that Torygg secretly admired him for it ("oh Ulfric! you bad bad man!" hehehe).

Ulfric himself says "Torygg was no true high king. His father, maybe, but not Torygg." I didn't take that as particularly vengeful, however, and it echoes what other people say about Torygg not doing much other than giving speeches about the empire.

Except for the fact that torygg was willing to stand up against the empire if Ulfric asked him too, he was also strong enough to face Ulfric stormcloak in single combat knowing he was going to die.

Keep in mind Torygg was a young man who only recently became High King. He never had a chance to complete any heroic or memorable accomplishments.

And loyalty to a higher governing body is hardly the mark of a bad leader.

Despite being an Imperial supporter there is something I like to say to this: He is an asset as long as the war continues. By the end of the conflict he will either be dead or openly hostile to the Thalmor. In other words no longer an asset to their cause.

He is really a Thalmor Agent disguised in a Nord illusion.

Actually..no. The woman who says that, says that and then goes on and on about reasobs why the king would never do that.

Uncooperative ally. The Thalmor see Ulfric as an asset, even though Ulfric really does hate the Thalmor. It's like in Fallout New Vegas. Mr. House wants Caesar still alive, that doesn't mean Mr. House is in allegiance with Caesar.

The Thalmor see Ulfric as a threat IF HE WINS. If he doesn't, then the Thalmor will keep him around to distract the Empire. Still doesn't make up for the fact that Ulfric is racist.

I don't think Ulfric is racist. I think Ulfric is like Tullius: too focused on one eventuality to pay attention to more important things. Ulfric, unlike Tullius however, has always made me uneasy - to the point of literal shivers a couple of times (I mean IRL....)

That may've been it. Depending on whose side you might favor, I guess that can be seen as Ulfric killing Torygg because he didn't get his way. I'm not terribly partial to Ulfric despite trying like a dozen times to try and find him tolerable, so maybe my ears heard different.

While both are focused on only one eventuality, Tullius doesn't have a hold to look after. Ulfric, on the other hand, has been neglecting Windhelm in favor of his delusions of grandeur.

Oh yes - I QUITE agree. And that's one thing that makes me prefer Tullius and the Empire over Ulfric and the 'cloaks. The other thing is.... I'm sorry, this is really very subjective.... Ulfric literally gives me shimblenidders. He's creepy. I get the shivers IRL every time I "listen" to his blather.

[Caveat entered: I don't do either "side" any more.]

bah basically both sides are right, its really about urself what ur prefernces are. But heres the scary part of it, we have these discussions and the main reason we have these long out discussions is not because of a wealth of info out ther but just like the paar deal and the lady with the redguards, its our lack of info that we have these drawn out discussions and I really hate to see future dlcs and games set us with these scenarios that really theres not alot of info going on even afterwards...end of that rant. But im a stormcloak supporter and I get ulfric,ive studied him a bit and tried to look at him from different angles and I like what I see. Now one thing that doed make me scratch my head is what the dosier meant by DIRECT contact...but really to me dosent make a difference because in the here and now hes trying for what I see as a nobel goal and is gonna take the fight directly to the thalmor before they come to us...i like that. Hell my charctor has done alot of shady [censored] buts it what my toon is doing now for the overall goal that makes him badass..so to me I cant judge on the past but I can on whathe doing now and what hes doing now I agree with. Others wont, but my goon does.

Y'know, rdn.... you probably have some great points to make. But I can't understand 99% of what you post. You're apparently using chatspeek or something, and sorry but I don't SPEAK that language. Try for decent grammar, and some paragraphing.

Youre not supposed to correct other users on that, as some may not fluently speak English

I don't see it that way at all. He made a calculated move to take out the empire's puppet and force a response, one way or another. Either a moot would be triggered or it would be war. This was after waiting nearly 30 years for the empire to do what they said they were going to do- turn and fight the Thalmor- and not only were they showing no sign of doing so, Markarth was demonstration that they would rather turn on their own citizens than stand up to the Dominion. The duel challenge was a brilliant move on his part, because no matter what Torygg did, Ulfric couldn't lose, and it would expose that the imperials allowing Nords their traditions was a facade. Checkmate. I don't see any malice towards Torygg in it. It was just what he had to do to accomplish his goal.

You haven't seen The 13th Warrior, have you. Ulfric's VA, Vladimir Kulich, plays the Viking king Buliwyf. It's a bit of a cult hit and one of my favorites, if for no other reason than it's about the only movie ever made that shows Norse culture in a fairly positive light. And Ulfric is a pretty classic model of a Viking warrior king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao

Ah. Excuse me.


No.... I haven't "seen" it. Assuming "it" is a movie. I don't do movies.... and I don't do "VA". And the only thing Ulfric is a classic of is megalomania.

If the Empire was preparing to fight the Thalmor the right way, nobody should know if they are preparing.

And Ulfric counting on Torygg to accept the challenge might not have been the outcome he (Ulfric) desired. After all, if the High King declined the challenge, he would be seen as a coward and Ulfric would most likely obtain the throne without bloodshed. which would be desirable if he plans on fighting the Thalmor anytime soon. Disposing of the current High King in such a manner would also serve to put Ulfric in a better light. Whether or not the Empire intervenes would depend on whether or not Ulfric makes his motives public and if/how he secedes.

Well alrighty then.