Oh, come on, you cannot seriously be saying that there is no material difference between a character with the Apprentice Birthsign that gives a 100 bonus to magicka coupled with a 100% weakness to magicka compared to a character with the Atronach Birthsign that confers a 150 increase in magicka coupled with a 50% Spell Absorbtion and Stunted Magicka regen, compared to a character with the Warrior Birthsign that started out with a 10 point bonus to Strength and Endurance, etc. etc. Then you add in the racial differences from prior games and yeah, you have got at least as much diversity by the end of the game in prior games as you have in Skyrim.

Plus in prior games you had huge diversity at the beginning of the game. In Skyrim you have to be high level before your character starts to feel unique. Remember, it is all about the journey, not necessarily where you are when the journey is over.

Didn't High Elves have the natural bonus Magicka in Oblivion as well? So taking the Apprentice Sign gave High Elves much more Magicka than any other race could get?


This doesn't happen in Skyrim.

Suprise...suprise, you missed the whole arguement again. Sure there is a difference between a mage with or without the apprentice birthsign, but when you compare it to the multiple mage character combinations you can created with the perk system in Skryim, it is a very insignificant difference.

Seems to be you are one of those people who cant help but fixate on what was removed and it is preventing you from enjoying what was added. Comparing the birthsigns to the perk system as far as character differentiation is just ridiculous.

Yes in Oblivion, High Elves got plus 100 Magicka and Bretton got plus 50. Also, since Magicka was tied to Intelligence, the highest natural magicka you could get without racial bonuses or birthsigns was 200. So a plus 100 for being an Altmer and a plus 100 for an Apprentice birthsign (or plus 150 for Atronach) meant that you had at least twice as much magicka end game as say an Orc with the Warior birthsign, and that is assuming that the Orc leveled its intellegence all the way to 100. If the Orc did not bother to level intelligence, then you could end up with an Altmer mage that had four or five times (or more) as much magicka as an Orc (or Nord or Redgaurd, etc) warroir.

So, even for Oblivion characters that had leveled all skills to 100, there could still be some fairly big differences between the final characters. The Orc in the above example would have a lot more health than the mage because of higher starting Endurance and even more of a difference if the Orc leveled Endurance quickly while the Altmer leveled other attributes.

One point:

In Skyrim, there is only a 50 Magicka difference between a High Elf Destruction Mage and an Orc Destruction Mage.

In Oblivion you could have, at the very least, had a Magicka pool double that size between the two.

See now you missed my earlier argument. There are not multiple mage combinations in Skyrim. With something like 56 perk points to spend you can take every meaningful magic perk in all six magical schools (you don't need the cost reducing perks with enchant because of free casting). Add another 7 perks and you can get every meaningful alchemy perk for a mage. How does that provide diversity in mage builds in Skyrim?

So a mage in Oblivion with all magic skills at 100 the only difference would be the size of his/her magica pool. In Skyrim, with the perks, a mage with all magic skills at 100 can be a numerous amount of combinations. I'd have to pull out my old stats text book to actually calculate the number of combinations. This is the point I am trying to make. Sure we may have lost the birthsigns that resulted in the loss of increasing our magica pool but we gained the perk system that allows for such a more detailed, customizable character.

Yes, if you have 80 perk points to spend (or fewer, depending on how high you level your character) and 280 perks to spend them on, there are, mathmatically speaking, a great number of "different" possible builds. The problem is that for all practicle purposes most of those "different" builds are pretty much the same. There are a few different builds you can do in Skyrim, but not that many that are different in a meaningful way.

EDIT: Reminds me of that old joke about the difference between a mathematician and an engineer. Show both of them a room with a beautiful womon inside and tell them that they can take a step into the room but the second step has to be half as big as the first step, and the third step has to be half as big as the second step, and so on. The mathemetician will never enter the room because he knows he can never reach the woman because he will always be half a step away from her. The engineer will enter the room immediately and walk right up to the woman and give her a kiss because he knows that he can get close enough for all practical purposes.

Except that's not what I said at all.

There is only 50 Magicka difference between a High Elf Mage and an Orc Mage of the same variety. That's bad.

It provides diversity by giving you a choice. Just like the argument about role playing earlier, you don't need to or are forced to choose all of the magic perks. You can create any type of mage you want. You can still use destruction magic but without the perks you wont be a master at it. You can make a destruction mage who is more powerful using frost then fire. Unlike in past games, if you used the skill it leveled, and the skill level determined your output. Now the player has the choice and control to create the character.

That's not role-playing, that's meta-gaming.

Yes, and one of the mages I can create is a mage that has every magical perk available except the cost reducing perks, which he does not need because of his enchant suits that he made with his enchant perks. So, sure, by purposefully gimping my characters I could end up with several different mages that were good at different schools of magic, but how is that different than prior games?

And why are we arguing about this anyway? The solution is obvious. Have a hybrid system that combines elements of the prior system with some perks that provide some additional unique abilities. Half the perks ought to be things that you just get naturally as your skill increases. All those armsmen perks, for instance. Make those something you just get as your skill goes up, then have some interesting and unique perks, like the power attack perks that you can pick as you level your character.

Maybe for you, but those with an actual imagination the possiblities are vast. Just because you find a skill tree usless doesn't mean others do.

I think that's why Bethesda has built a game that's as wide open as possible, with as few limitations as possible, so they can attract as many players as possible.

They have to get as wide an audience as possible with one game, after all, it's still about the money.

Well, earlier you admitted that "lockpicking is a useless tree," so it is not just me who finds some of the perks useless, my friend.

Explain to me again how all those cost reducing magic perks are useful in light of the cost reducing you can get from enchant?

An "actual imagination"? That is the second time in this thread you have made a personal derogatory comment about me. I let the first one pass unnoticed, but this time I feel compelled to point out that resorting to name calling is not making your argument any stronger.

Yes. They have given us a lake that is only ankle deep.

That sounds like a real boring character development scheme leading to generic characters. The perk system and planning is one of the few elements left in the game that actually require one to use his brain.

It also is one thing in the game that is really good at breaking the balance of the game.

So there are other elements no longer left in the game that require brainpower that you would like to see back? Which things?

I am not sure why you think such a system would be boring. You would still have your perk system and all the planning that entails. You would also have meaningful distinctions between the races, some perks that you got naturally by advancing in skill level (but others that require planning your perk build), birthsigns and perhaps classes. But in a hybrid system, none of that would take away from your perk planning that you value so dearly.

I think all of the +20% Damage/Armor Perks are completely wasted and could have been much, much more creative.

If they had eliminated all those and eliminated all the magicka cost reducing perks and replaced all those perks with something creative, then I might like the perks system much better because then there would be a much greater variety in potential builds.

EDIT: I just did some quick math in my head and something like 85 of the 280 possible perks fall into one of those categories.

Almost all of the Light and Heavy Armor Perks are nothing more than "fill X requirement gain X extra Armor."

That's true. There are probably more than 85 perks that cover things that you should just get as part of your advancement in the skill and could be replaced with unique and creative perks that would lead to a greater diversification in builds.

Very much agree. I really, really disagree with the Perk that makes Heavy Armor weightless.

In my opinion it would have been far more creative to do things like:

When wearing all Light Armor gain an additional 5% attack speed with melee weapons.

Rather than:

When wearing all Light Armor gain +25% Armor.